In what ways is Southern Missouri southern, and in what ways is it not? (St. Louis: best, metropolitan)

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by ajf131

I never said they were the only ones. I'm simply saying they probably have the most German influence. The entire Midwest for the most part has heavy German influence. Most states in the Midwest are dominated by German ancestry in the majority of their counties.

You mentioned something about the Italian influence. St. Louis has often been referred to as "Rome of the West".

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

You mentioned something about the Italian influence. St. Louis has often been referred to as "Rome of the West".

In one sense or another that's certainly true. You can see a lot of Roman influence in some of the architecture around here, such as the Art Museum...there's a place on the northeast corner of the intersection of Lindell and Spring where you can see an indication of that there. And lots of Italians settled on the South side in a region known as the Hill, which is bounded roughly on the north by Manchester Road. Not sure where the Southern boundary is but the South side and more specifically the Southwest side is heavily Italian. St. Louis is certainly one of the most Italian cities west of the Mississippi if not the most. Many of the restaurants in The Hill date back to the 1950s, and houses in that area are at least 100 years old. Yogi Berra actually grew up in The Hill, as well as Joe Garagiola. And yes, the Mafia was present too. One of the reasons African Americans never settled on the South side were because of the Italians...the Italians started settling in St. Louis right around the time of the Great Migration when African Americans were coming up here from the South. Many Italians in general at that time I've been told intensely disliked blacks and Jews and many other people...I would even be willing to wager that if you weren't Italian, you weren't welcome around them in the beginning. Not to mention, the Mafia used to be pretty big here at one time, not like Chicago or New York, but it was here and may even still be today. The Midwest and Northeast used to be Mafia headquarters, so I doubt this is surprising news to anyone.

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Originally Posted by kshe95girl

heard a good one I have not heard in quite a while..... Cali, bet you know this!
My cousins in Broseley, Mo owned a place called Pry's Grocery, and it was located on the edge of the slough....... I have never, ever heard that term used anywhere else but SE Mo, anyone else know this term?

They use the term "slough" (pronounced SLEW) north of St. Louis along the Mississippi.

Missouri's southern influences do not end at I-70 or the Missouri river or at any fixed boundary. Missouri's southern influences seem to relate more to areas settled by people originally from Virginia (my ancestors) with English surnames. This would be the greater river valleys, including the Missouri River valley north of Kansas City and the Mississippi well north of St. Louis. These areas were settled before much of the rest of the Midwest (especially Illinois). Northern Missouri is absolutely full of people with mild twangs. Just go to towns like Maryville, halfway to Omaha (the non regional dialect capital) from KC , Hannibal, or Moberly.

Generally over top of, sprinkled with, and mixed into this Virginian (and later Kentucky) heritage are the generally cosmopolitan urban population centers (or in the case of heavily German-Irish St. Louis, inside of acting as a fascinating lingustic island while Kansas City is much more integrated with the surrounding lightly southern like population - i can hear this on the phone every time I call our company office in JOCO), and other earlier (French, Native American) and later (the massive German invasion, several waves of African Americans both in small towns and big cities and in the Ozarks - people from midwestern states like Indiana looking for a new start) arriving groups.

I generally regard this very, very light "Virginian" twang as the "official" accent of Missouri - outside of the bizarre linguistic island of Metro St. Louis - even amongst people with German surnames (though not always) and throughout metropolitan Kansas City. I generally have this light twang - especially when I drink - though i consciously "neutralize" or even "nasalize" (taking a jab at St. Louis accents) my accent in business situations - my family coming from between Hannibal and St. Louis along the Mississippi. I would fully expect that Samuel Clemens had this accent. However, there are A LOT of people with "neutral" accents all over Missouri, the Ozarks included, and the far Southeast flatlands excepted.

Versions of this lightly southern accent are also prevalent in southern and central Illinois between Chicago and St. Louis. Taylorville or Jacksonville northwest of St. Louis are good case studies.

However, Southeast MO in the flatlands has a western Tennessee/Northern Mississippi accent going on. I feel this is much, much different than the old school Northern Virginia influenced accent prevalent in the rest of the state.

[DinsdalePirahna]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

You mentioned something about the Italian influence. St. Louis has often been referred to as "Rome of the West".

I don't know about that. I think Jersey, Queens and Long Island take that prize.

Modcut- inappropriateon Parade.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by DinsdalePirahna

I don't know about that. I think Jersey, Queens and Long Island take that prize.

Modcut- inappropriateon Parade.

How would NJ or Long Island be the "Rome of the West"?

[DinsdalePirahna]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

How would NJ or Long Island be the "Rome of the West"?

Every midsize city has a sizable population of italians. From Poughkeepsie, New York to Denver Colorado. St. Louis is not unique.

Their are huge populations of chain wearing, knuckle-dragging, loudmouth Cafones (Gavones) and jabronis that over-populate places like Long Island's South Shore. Almost everyone's name ends in a vowel (I hope the Moderators don't cut that one).

But the Pizza and Italian restaurants are better there than anywhere else in the Country.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by DinsdalePirahna

Every midsize city has a sizable population of italians. From Poughkeepsie, New York to Denver Colorado. St. Louis is not unique.

Their are huge populations of chain wearing, knuckle-dragging, loudmouth Cafones (Gavones) and jabronis that over-populate places like Long Island's South Shore. Almost everyone's name ends in a vowel (I hope the Moderators don't cut that one).

But the Pizza and Italian restaurants are better there than anywhere else in the Country.

st. Louis is the "Rome of the West" for this reason:Rome of the West

[DinsdalePirahna]

Lot of Paisano Catholics in NY (and Boston). Probably a bigger percentage than what you see here.

"Rome of the West". I never heard that term until I read it on this thread.

And BTW, Nice blog.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by CoffeeAndBeer

They use the term "slough" (pronounced SLEW) north of St. Louis along the Mississippi.

Missouri's southern influences do not end at I-70 or the Missouri river or at any fixed boundary. Missouri's southern influences seem to relate more to areas settled by people originally from Virginia (my ancestors) with English surnames. This would be the greater river valleys, including the Missouri River valley north of Kansas City and the Mississippi well north of St. Louis. These areas were settled before much of the rest of the Midwest (especially Illinois). Northern Missouri is absolutely full of people with mild twangs. Just go to towns like Maryville, halfway to Omaha (the non regional dialect capital) from KC , Hannibal, or Moberly.

Generally over top of, sprinkled with, and mixed into this Virginian (and later Kentucky) heritage are the generally cosmopolitan urban population centers (or in the case of heavily German-Irish St. Louis, inside of acting as a fascinating lingustic island while Kansas City is much more integrated with the surrounding lightly southern like population - i can hear this on the phone every time I call our company office in JOCO), and other earlier (French, Native American) and later (the massive German invasion, several waves of African Americans both in small towns and big cities and in the Ozarks - people from midwestern states like Indiana looking for a new start) arriving groups.

I generally regard this very, very light "Virginian" twang as the "official" accent of Missouri - outside of the bizarre linguistic island of Metro St. Louis - even amongst people with German surnames (though not always) and throughout metropolitan Kansas City. I generally have this light twang - especially when I drink - though i consciously "neutralize" or even "nasalize" (taking a jab at St. Louis accents) my accent in business situations - my family coming from between Hannibal and St. Louis along the Mississippi. I would fully expect that Samuel Clemens had this accent. However, there are A LOT of people with "neutral" accents all over Missouri, the Ozarks included, and the far Southeast flatlands excepted.

Versions of this lightly southern accent are also prevalent in southern and central Illinois between Chicago and St. Louis. Taylorville or Jacksonville northwest of St. Louis are good case studies.

However, Southeast MO in the flatlands has a western Tennessee/Northern Mississippi accent going on. I feel this is much, much different than the old school Northern Virginia influenced accent prevalent in the rest of the state.

I have heard the Virginia twang, and that actually sounds like a Southern accent. The stuff I hear in Northern Missouri doesn't sound anything like that. My uncle lives in the D.C. area and I've met many Northern Virginians and traveled through the region a few times. The Missouri twang sounds just like speech patterns I've heard throughout the rest of the Lower Midwest...Central Illinois is quintessential Midwestern, yet as you said, the accent exists there. I think this accent is better called "A Midwestern accent with southern influences." Dialect maps of virtually every kind show the Southern accent to be dominant in southern Missouri only about as far north as Lebanon...and even then as you have said the maps aren't very accurate where that is concerned due to all the flatter accents there. Many natives from that area now speak with perfectly flat accents. The only area of Missouri that I would say has dominant and undeniable southern dialect is far south central and far southeastern Missouri below Cape Girardeau. I think it is safe to say you can hear this accent in Central Indiana and Central Ohio as well.

[DinsdalePirahna]

The accent here sounds a lot like the accent/nasal twang of Buffalo, NY and Cleveland Ohio.

The farther out of St. Louis you go , the more you start hearing a slight southern twang