In what ways is Southern Missouri southern, and in what ways is it not? (Kansas City: Mennonites, live)

[STLCardsBlues1989]

I think I had ancestors in the same county fight for both sides of the war.

Seems like over most of Missouri it was pretty divided. The only part of Missouri I would call really southern is the bootheel. There's more a drawl there, and it's flat as a pancake. They grow cotton and rice. I have an ITV class and sometimes the people in our class make jokes about the classes from the bootheel and how they speak. I think we have somewhat of a drawl, but from what I've always heard, when you get south and east of Poplar Bluff it gets more pronounced.

Parts of Missouri, you ask 5 people from 2 different nearby towns, and you may get 3 that say they are Southern and 2 that claim to be Midwestern, or vise versa. It's kind of a gray area around here. I know lots of people that park cars on their lawns and listen to country music. But I see aspects of Southern and Midwestern. Although I do see my neighbors kids running around barefoot outside sometimes. I did as a kid. I still walk outside barefoot if it's warm enough. I'm not sure if that's a Southern thing or not. My Dad does get grits. And he likes tea. And you can get sweet tea around here, but McDonald and Ryans and other large chains offer it. I'm not sure where around the country they offer.

You could call Branson Southern, but it also markets itself that way. Dixie Stampede, all the Country Western shows. A few miles from the Arkansas border. But I wouldn't call Springfield fully Southern or Midwestern. I know people there and whenever we go there, you don't hear a whole lot of Southern accents.

And there's also the Midwestern drawl. Even St. Louis has it to an extent. Nelly made a chunk of change off of it (or was that Chingy, or both)?

You do see Confederate flags sometimes. Don't take the Confederate flag as racist. Sometimes it's just a symbol of Southern pride. In fact, I believe there were free blacks who fought for the confederacy. My sister once commented that a guy she knew in school had the Confederate flag on his truck, and his best friend was black.

We can keep beating this dead horse. Fact is, it's both. Southern Missouri is Midwest in some places, Southern in some places, indescernable in others.

By the way, if you have had ancestors fight in a war in Missouri between 1812 and World War II, this link may interest you: http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/soldiers/

[Hillman]

STLCardsBlues1989 you can not be serious about being flat and raising Cotton as being Southern.There is way too many places in the deep South that is hilly and don't grow Cotton and is geared more to Timber production the same as many parts of Missouri.As matter fact timber is Louisianas main cash crop.

hillman

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by jackhitts

I've wondered about this myself. I'm from Michigan, so it's definitely different than the Midwest I'm used to, but I've also lived in Texas and spent some time in Oklahoma. Missouri shares many more affinities with the Midwest, I think, than with Texas or Oklahoma or other states I've visited. I've never heard anyone from around here (Waynesville...and by that I mean Waynesville-area natives, not soldiers) refer to themselves as southern.

Although, one strange thing I've noticed: Waffle House. I thought there were purely Southern, and I've never seen them in southern Indiana or Illinois or Kansas. Hmm.

Waffle Houses are in Indiana and in Ohio. Google them and you will find numerous ones around the Indianapolis area. I'm pretty sure I've seen them in Southern Indiana. Southern Missouri I agree is different from the atypical Midwest, but it has more affinities, as you said, with that region than with Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kentucky, or Tennessee.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by Hillman

STLCardsBlues1989 you can not be serious about being flat and raising Cotton as being Southern.There is way too many places in the deep South that is hilly and don't grow Cotton and is geared more to Timber production the same as many parts of Missouri.As matter fact timber is Louisianas main cash crop.

hillman

Timber production, however, is not a Southern thing either. And the type of timber in the deep South and yes, even the Upper South, is not the same as Southern Missouri's. Southern Missouri's forests are definitely Midwestern. The quality of the soil is the other reason why timber is the main industry of Southern Missouri, although corn production, which is more of a Midwestern thing, especially in Southwest Missouri, I've noticed is prominent.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989

I think I had ancestors in the same county fight for both sides of the war.

Seems like over most of Missouri it was pretty divided. The only part of Missouri I would call really southern is the bootheel. There's more a drawl there, and it's flat as a pancake. They grow cotton and rice. I have an ITV class and sometimes the people in our class make jokes about the classes from the bootheel and how they speak. I think we have somewhat of a drawl, but from what I've always heard, when you get south and east of Poplar Bluff it gets more pronounced.

Parts of Missouri, you ask 5 people from 2 different nearby towns, and you may get 3 that say they are Southern and 2 that claim to be Midwestern, or vise versa. It's kind of a gray area around here. I know lots of people that park cars on their lawns and listen to country music. But I see aspects of Southern and Midwestern. Although I do see my neighbors kids running around barefoot outside sometimes. I did as a kid. I still walk outside barefoot if it's warm enough. I'm not sure if that's a Southern thing or not. My Dad does get grits. And he likes tea. And you can get sweet tea around here, but McDonald and Ryans and other large chains offer it. I'm not sure where around the country they offer.

You could call Branson Southern, but it also markets itself that way. Dixie Stampede, all the Country Western shows. A few miles from the Arkansas border. But I wouldn't call Springfield fully Southern or Midwestern. I know people there and whenever we go there, you don't hear a whole lot of Southern accents.

And there's also the Midwestern drawl. Even St. Louis has it to an extent. Nelly made a chunk of change off of it (or was that Chingy, or both)?

You do see Confederate flags sometimes. Don't take the Confederate flag as racist. Sometimes it's just a symbol of Southern pride. In fact, I believe there were free blacks who fought for the confederacy. My sister once commented that a guy she knew in school had the Confederate flag on his truck, and his best friend was black.

We can keep beating this dead horse. Fact is, it's both. Southern Missouri is Midwest in some places, Southern in some places, indescernable in others.

By the way, if you have had ancestors fight in a war in Missouri between 1812 and World War II, this link may interest you: Missouri Digital Heritage : Soldiers' Records: War of 1812 - World War I

I'm not sure I agree about St. Louis having the so-called "Midwestern drawl." St. Louis has its own derivative of Midwestern dialect. The accent is undoubtedly Midwestern.

[cyrano]

Regions transition, one into the other. Missouri is in a place where south transitions into midwest and even north and east transitions into west. I see it all the time here in the Columbia-Jeff area. There's both Confederate flags on people's cars and Grant Elementary School two blocks away from here. The grocery stores carry both southern-type veggies and stuff from Minnesota. The history of the state is bound up in the fact that north not only morphs into south here, in the past it collided with deadly consequences. I really enjoy going down to Cape (and even had a good time in Springfield earlier this week), because it really is kind of a visit to a place that's similar but different.

As for St. Louis and its accent-- I can't describe it but I know it when I hear it, and you still hear it a LOT there, even on local radio. It's miles from southern and I wouldn't even call it a drawl. There's kind of a hard edge to it, that's the closest I can come. Anyone who pronounces 44 "farty-far" doesn't have a southern accent.

[Hillman]

Kind of off subject but I got in a heck of a fight after leaving a Bar in NYC because of all things my accent But on the other hand I almost lost my life protecting a Black Man.

I do fly the Navy Jack at my home.And have had many Black visitors,nothing has ever been said.

hillman

[STLCardsBlues1989]

Hillman, my point was that in Missouri it seems like there's a noticeable difference in accents from Ozarks to bootheel flatland. And the flatland grows cotton. Cotton is generally grown in the south from what I've seen.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Regions transition, one into the other. Missouri is in a place where south transitions into midwest and even north and east transitions into west. I see it all the time here in the Columbia-Jeff area. There's both Confederate flags on people's cars and Grant Elementary School two blocks away from here. The grocery stores carry both southern-type veggies and stuff from Minnesota. The history of the state is bound up in the fact that north not only morphs into south here, in the past it collided with deadly consequences. I really enjoy going down to Cape (and even had a good time in Springfield earlier this week), because it really is kind of a visit to a place that's similar but different.

As for St. Louis and its accent-- I can't describe it but I know it when I hear it, and you still hear it a LOT there, even on local radio. It's miles from southern and I wouldn't even call it a drawl. There's kind of a hard edge to it, that's the closest I can come. Anyone who pronounces 44 "farty-far" doesn't have a southern accent.

I don't necessarily agree with Confederate flags being a strict indication of Southerness. I've seen them in states that were free, including Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. Remember that these states had a lot of Confederate sympathizers and pro-Southern politicians (Copperheads as they were called). As for the Northern half of Missouri, it is without a doubt Midwestern in every form. The lifestyle, culture, architecture, feel, and landscape all coincide with Iowa and Illinois. Below Jefferson City and Columbia in my opinion is where the transition begins. You see a lot more Southern characteristics begin to appear once you are about 40 miles below Jefferson City. Once you are north of Highway 50, you are without a doubt in the Midwest. In terms of transitions, I agree that it has some western and southern influences, but for the most part it is an overall Midwestern state, simply because it is definitively Midwestern in the northern half and in its two major cities, which are in the central latitude of the state (Kansas City and St. Louis) and retains Midwestern influence and characteristics in a lot of the Southern half of the state...it does have Confederate Memorials, but they are not an indication of Southerness either, as Camp Douglas, which is in Chicago, has one. Most of the ones in Missouri are to commemorate those Confederates who died on the battlefield...even Pennsylvania commerates Confederates who died on the battlefield in its Gettsyburg Confederate Memorial. I think that before the Civil War, it was hard to discern what Missouri was. After the Civil War, it shed a lot of its ties to the South. Many Missourians who took up cause for the Confederacy were formerly conditional unionists who only took up arms for the South after events such as the St. Louis massacre and, in the case of Jesse James for example, Union soldiers brutal treatment of their families and plundering and looting towns and villages without really any form of provocation. Jesse James himself wasn't pro-Southern until the actions toward his family by Union soldiers filled him with a deep resentment and hatred for them.

[jackhitts]

I've seen rednecks in northern Michigan with Confederate flags. So I dunno.

As far as the St. Louis accent, though, I've noticed a few idiosyncrasies differentiating it from its Midwestern cousins. For example:
1) How you say "St. Louis." A lot of people from other parts of the Midwest pronounce it "Saint Louis," carefully enunciating every syllable. But St. Louisians tend to run it together into two quick ones so that it sounds like "Sane Loose" said really fast.
2) The "farty fahr" is definitely something I notice.
3) Weird vowel sounds that I can't quite put a finger on. The Chicago and Michigan accents are notable for their upper nasaly twang, so that "mom" sounds like "maaaahm." St. Louis accent has a different sort of twist to this, but I can't quite differentiate it.
4) Soda. Why is it that people in Missouri say soda when most of the rest of the Midwest says "pop"? I mean, this is a common argument but it seems like Missouri is surrounded by states where "pop" is the norm (Iowa, Illinois, Kansas) or even "coke" in Oklahoma, but for some reason Missourians go with pop. Weird.