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Very good points and assesment. To me, some in KC and St. Louis seem southern, but then it may seem that way to someone in the Dakotas and Minnesota but not that way as much to others. I agree that most of Kenucky alligns more with the south than it does with the Midwest and I sometime wonder why some people allign Kentucky with the Midwest.
The Mennonite and Amish communities make Missouri more similar in that regard with other Midwestern states such as Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, and Minnesota. South Dakota has Mennonites, but most of those are well integrated with everyone else, and Hutterites that may be more similar to the old order Mennonites. My grandpa on my dad's side was a Mennonite.
I agree that Missouri has more Midwestern characteristics and a lot of the smaller towns especially are very similar to smaller towns in Iowa in feel and people wise.
I think you need to travel more in the state-- it sounds like you've only been in the northern parts. Go down south of, as some say, US 50, and you are certain to notice a material change from what you're describing. Maybe there are Mennonites or Amish in southern Missouri, but there sure aren't many. I've certainly never seen them, and for a good reason-- for the most part, the Ozarks doesn't have good farm land. Instead, what you'll see much more of is classic Ozark, which is far more southern than the rest of the state, whether or not they fly Confederate flags-- and I mean "southern" in the Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky sense-- hardscrabble hill people. They couldn't be more different from what you describe.
I'll accept the idea of US 50 being the dividing line, not I-70, but there's a transition thing going on in that area, so maybe it's less of a dividing line and more of a transition zone. Jefferson City, for instance, is still hugely Germanic ethnically, but that's a function of Germans coming up the Missouri from St. Louis (whose biggest caucasian ethnicity, I'll bet, is still German) to look for farm land. But you also had the southern would-be plantation owners, who settled and patented similar river bottom land to raise cotton-- that's the "Little Dixie" area, the boundaries are still somewhat open to discussion.
And for those who don't think that Missouri has a southern element, I give you Exhibit A to the contrary. And Exhibit B.Exhibit C.Still more. The descendants of those people still live here.
Holy cow, it is so mixed IMO. I'm originally from New Jersey, but I have family in southern Virginia (they consider themselves southern, and they do NOT consider where I live, to be southern), and to me there are some aspects of yankeeish, southernism, and midwesternism. It makes for a unique atmosphere. I have traveled a bit; I don't consider myself an expert in all American cultures but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say Missouri is probably one of the more unique states.
The county I live in was divided during the civil war, and to this day it is still a hotly debated issue.
Sweet tea? Oh most definitely. Everyone drinks it, homemade or Red Diamond. Yet, unsweetened iced tea is popular too. Other foods I would consider "southern" (collard greens, grits, sausage and gravy, frogs legs) can be found not everywhere, but frequently enough.
In my area, they say sack instead of bag, stool instead of toilet, pop instead of soda. It took me forever to find soda in the grocery store when I first moved here, it wasn't listed on any of the aisle signs (and I didn't see it). Finally I asked a clerk, who looked at me like I was nuts, and told me POP was on aisle whatever. lol Some folks say Missour-ee, some folks say Missour-ah. It is mostly the 45+ age group that seems to say Missour-ah, IMO. And of course, BBQ is everywhere. I agree with the above poster, BBQ is loved by both midwesterners and southerners, but they each have their own style. My "southern" family does not care for our "midwest" BBQ. (I love both.)
I see a fair amount of Confederate flags; you can easily find a couple in just about any town.
Interesting topic, one that I am sure can be discussed infinitely.
I think you need to travel more in the state-- it sounds like you've only been in the northern parts. Go down south of, as some say, US 50, and you are certain to notice a material change from what you're describing. Maybe there are Mennonites or Amish in southern Missouri, but there sure aren't many. I've certainly never seen them, and for a good reason-- for the most part, the Ozarks doesn't have good farm land. Instead, what you'll see much more of is classic Ozark, which is far more southern than the rest of the state, whether or not they fly Confederate flags-- and I mean "southern" in the Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky sense-- hardscrabble hill people. They couldn't be more different from what you describe.
I'll accept the idea of US 50 being the dividing line, not I-70, but there's a transition thing going on in that area, so maybe it's less of a dividing line and more of a transition zone. Jefferson City, for instance, is still hugely Germanic ethnically, but that's a function of Germans coming up the Missouri from St. Louis (whose biggest caucasian ethnicity, I'll bet, is still German) to look for farm land. But you also had the southern would-be plantation owners, who settled and patented similar river bottom land to raise cotton-- that's the "Little Dixie" area, the boundaries are still somewhat open to discussion.
And for those who don't think that Missouri has a southern element, I give you Exhibit A to the contrary. And Exhibit B.Exhibit C.Still more. The descendants of those people still live here.
Very good point. I have been to Missouri south of I-70 on two different occasions (back in 1997 and back in 1999). Most of the other times, it was either to Kansas City, St. Louis or passing through on I-70. I will go down through southern parts of Missouri in two months and will pay closer attention to the subtle changes going from NW Missouri on I-29 to down by either Joplin or Springfield (have not finalized on my route yet). Nonethesless, it should be interesting and good to see some unique characteristics.
Very good point. I have been to Missouri south of I-70 on two different occasions (back in 1997 and back in 1999). Most of the other times, it was either to Kansas City, St. Louis or passing through on I-70. I will go down through southern parts of Missouri in two months and will pay closer attention to the subtle changes going from NW Missouri on I-29 to down by either Joplin or Springfield (have not finalized on my route yet). Nonethesless, it should be interesting and good to see some unique characteristics.
I think you'll see it-- for one thing, you'll find the food changing. Unless you're traveling alone, stop at Lambert's in Ozark outside Springfield. It's a branch of the main one down in Sikeston, there near the Bootheel. The food's about as southern as it comes.
I'd say that Joplin isn't as southern-- just like a lot of Missouri places near the state borders take on some of the characteristics of the states they abut, Joplin always seems a lot like Oklahoma to me, but that's definitely a personal thing. And, Joplin isn't really in the Ozarks, and even Springfield, while it might be the unofficial capital of the Ozarks in some ways, is in many respects a sanitized American suburban-driven town. I'd say keep on driving south out of Springfield on US 65, through Ozark, maybe make a little detour to Nixa, down to Branson.
The Missouri Ozarks aren't entirely southern. It's definitely it's own area, a very distinct and misunderstood part of America. I highly recommend the novels of Daniel Woodrell, who lives in West Plains, to get a real feel for what life there is like these days. It's often a hard life, no doubt about that, but these are people of tremendous pride.
Number 3's so subtle that I doubt anyone would notice it if they weren't kinda nerdy and interested already about language and dialects like I am.
Also...do people in St. Louis say "WaRshington" like they do in Central MO?
Ummm, they definitely do not...they don't say it like that in Central Missouri either, at least not from the people I've heard. My grandmother was born and raised in Mexico, Missouri, which is near Columbia, and just said "Washington," and she had the typical rural accent found in Missouri.
I think you'll see it-- for one thing, you'll find the food changing. Unless you're traveling alone, stop at Lambert's in Ozark outside Springfield. It's a branch of the main one down in Sikeston, there near the Bootheel. The food's about as southern as it comes.
I'd say that Joplin isn't as southern-- just like a lot of Missouri places near the state borders take on some of the characteristics of the states they abut, Joplin always seems a lot like Oklahoma to me, but that's definitely a personal thing. And, Joplin isn't really in the Ozarks, and even Springfield, while it might be the unofficial capital of the Ozarks in some ways, is in many respects a sanitized American suburban-driven town. I'd say keep on driving south out of Springfield on US 65, through Ozark, maybe make a little detour to Nixa, down to Branson.
The Missouri Ozarks aren't entirely southern. It's definitely it's own area, a very distinct and misunderstood part of America. I highly recommend the novels of Daniel Woodrell, who lives in West Plains, to get a real feel for what life there is like these days. It's often a hard life, no doubt about that, but these are people of tremendous pride.
I think you are right about Joplin. That's exactly how my father described Joplin...it is a lot like the Northeast corner of Oklahoma, but it also has characteristics of Kansas since it is near the border. I think Springfield is more or less in the same category, as it is only 30 miles from Joplin. Joplin and Springfield I think are cultural crossroads. And I agree about the Ozarks too...they are definitely their own region, in addition to blending together influences from the Midwest, Upper South, and the Great Plains. And I agree about Sikeston too. Not only is the cuisine Southern, so is the agriculture and the accents sound like Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas. The Ozarks are different in this respect, as Southern accents are not nearly as common. It is only in this area of the state, the Mississippi Delta, that Missouri is truly Southern. In the rest of Southern Missouri, it is a blend of Midwestern and Southern. In the Central Till Plains, and in the Osage Plains, including St. Louis and Kansas City, which are more or less in the Central Till Plains, it is Midwestern. I would say that at least 2/3 of the state leans more toward the Midwest.
I think you need to travel more in the state-- it sounds like you've only been in the northern parts. Go down south of, as some say, US 50, and you are certain to notice a material change from what you're describing. Maybe there are Mennonites or Amish in southern Missouri, but there sure aren't many. I've certainly never seen them, and for a good reason-- for the most part, the Ozarks doesn't have good farm land. Instead, what you'll see much more of is classic Ozark, which is far more southern than the rest of the state, whether or not they fly Confederate flags-- and I mean "southern" in the Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky sense-- hardscrabble hill people. They couldn't be more different from what you describe.
A large Amish population is present near Seymour, about half an hour east of Springfield. Scattered Amish families also reside in Texas County near Raymondville, and quite a few Mennonites live just east of West Plains in Howell County. I wouldn't consider the Amish or Mennonite population large in the Ozarks, but it is very much alive.
I-44 between roughly Rolla and Eureka also seems to serve as a dividing line between the majority-Midwestern influences and beginnings of the Southern influences in the Ozarks. Driving north-south on US 63, you see a very large change south of Rolla. Many of the small towns south of Jefferson City, like Westphalia and Freeburg have large, ornate Catholic churches, which are absent in towns like Licking, Edgar Springs, and Houston. There, the churches tend to be overwhelmingly Protestant. The land is also a lot more open north of I-44, and south of the interstate it becomes more forested. Towns like Edgar Springs and Licking seem to be much poorer than the corresponding towns north of I-44, and both have empty storefronts downtown, while the towns north of the interstate are more lively and well-kept. Some of the differences are no doubt due to the large German influence north of I-44, but regardless, Potosi, Steelville, Licking, and Houston have a completely different "feel" to them than Vienna or Linn.
A large Amish population is present near Seymour, about half an hour east of Springfield. Scattered Amish families also reside in Texas County near Raymondville, and quite a few Mennonites live just east of West Plains in Howell County. I wouldn't consider the Amish or Mennonite population large in the Ozarks, but it is very much alive.
I-44 between roughly Rolla and Eureka also seems to serve as a dividing line between the majority-Midwestern influences and beginnings of the Southern influences in the Ozarks. Driving north-south on US 63, you see a very large change south of Rolla. Many of the small towns south of Jefferson City, like Westphalia and Freeburg have large, ornate Catholic churches, which are absent in towns like Licking, Edgar Springs, and Houston. There, the churches tend to be overwhelmingly Protestant. The land is also a lot more open north of I-44, and south of the interstate it becomes more forested. Towns like Edgar Springs and Licking seem to be much poorer than the corresponding towns north of I-44, and both have empty storefronts downtown, while the towns north of the interstate are more lively and well-kept. Some of the differences are no doubt due to the large German influence north of I-44, but regardless, Potosi, Steelville, Licking, and Houston have a completely different "feel" to them than Vienna or Linn.
There is several Mennonites and Amish around me in Lead Mine and Buffalo.They do alot of Truck Farming and Sawmills.
There is a bunch in Latham.
hillman
Last edited by ShadowCaver; 03-17-2009 at 08:03 PM..
As for the whole Washington/WaRshington pronounciation thing, it is not just a Missouri thing. My family is mostly in Ohio and Pennsylvania, and most of them say it as WaRshington too. I make it a point not to.
I would like to put this whole Midwest vs Southern issue to rest by choosing neither. Missouri is simply Missouri. It has its own uniqueness in that it has a little bit of influence from every state that borders it mixed in. It has a true blend that you will not find almost anywhere else. The blend is almost natural, and there really is no defining line. It is something to really take pride in, no matter where you are in the state.
I went to college in Springfield, and that exact mixture of Southern, Midwestern, and Western influences was one of the greatest things about living in Missouri.
As for the whole Washington/WaRshington pronounciation thing, it is not just a Missouri thing. My family is mostly in Ohio and Pennsylvania, and most of them say it as WaRshington too. I make it a point not to.
I would like to put this whole Midwest vs Southern issue to rest by choosing neither. Missouri is simply Missouri. It has its own uniqueness in that it has a little bit of influence from every state that borders it mixed in. It has a true blend that you will not find almost anywhere else. The blend is almost natural, and there really is no defining line. It is something to really take pride in, no matter where you are in the state.
I went to college in Springfield, and that exact mixture of Southern, Midwestern, and Western influences was one of the greatest things about living in Missouri.
Every state is like that though. Ohio has influences from Pennsylvania, Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana, and Michigan, Indiana has influences from Kentucky, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio, Illinois has influences from Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri, and Kentucky. There is definitely a defining line, are you kidding me? When you can point out characteristics of Arkansas and Kentucky in the Northern half of Missouri, I might believe you. The Northern half of Missouri, including St. Louis and Kansas City, is like Illinois, Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska. And to whoever said sweet tea was prominent, if it's Jackson County you are talking about, I have to call that a bluff unless you are talking about Cracker Barrel. Sweet tea in most of Missouri is about as prominent as it is in Illinois. And yes, both Illinois and Missouri in the extreme southern parts sell sweet tea. The Northern half of Missouri has a definitive identity. The Southern half does not. It is not an even cultural mix, not by far. At least 2/3 of the state leans more Midwestern. Joplin and Springfield I agree are very mixed, but to draw that conclusion about all of Missouri isn't true. St. Louis, and Kansas City are solidly Midwestern cities. Southern influences, while there, are mostly just that in most of the state except in south central Missouri below Rolla and Farmington and below Cape Girardeau in the Mississippi Delta.
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