Missourians & ObamaCare (Rolla, Ozark, Ladue: crime, neighborhoods, taxi)

[Marksman84]

Originally Posted by ozarksboy

I think we should tax the rich Californians to pay for poor Missourians' health care.

Californicators are not rich, squire - they are broke, which is why they're moving to Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas et. al and complaining about living there every second of the day.

[SpanielGirl]

oookkkaaaayyy...since my original comment has morphed into a discussion of ObamaCare:I get my 2cents worth.
1-When has ANY government program ever done what it is supposed to do? And when has Congress kept their hands OFF THE MONEY???? Think the post office looses money because they can't handle it? No, Congress simply took their pot of money-and the USPS MAKES MONEY EVERY YEAR-and put the $$$ into the General Fund. Presto! Change-o! Now, Congress can AFFORD to cover contraception for wild horses, or new planes, or platinum commerative rings.
2-Do you really think that without training any more doctors, you can actually cover more patients? My mother was an RN. She should have gone to medical school but the cost to be a doctor couldn't square with a sick husband and raising a child. There is NOTHING to educate more doctors/nurses/surgical staff,etc. in this bill. And, once the Salary Czar says you aren't worth much;why oh why would anybody put 10-12 years of their life on hold for advanced surgical training. That is after 4 years of college and 5 years of internship. It's simple to be another lawyer and sue people.
3-Healthcare is expensive. Whether it is here, Canada, the UK, or Cuba. The difference in the US is that we treat everyone and you can be seen by a doctor or surgeon in a short period of time. I notice that nobody is driving to Montreal for care. In fact, we cannot keep foreign citizens OUT of our healthcare system. When Linda McCartney found out that she had breast cancer, there was a reason she came to New York for treatment. The British system DOESN'T. And thank God, Paul had the money to spend-because affected British women are supposed to show the stiff upper lip and soldier on.
4-No one gets turned away in the US. Including illegals. Ever been to a hospital in San Diego? I lived in SD for 4 years, and believe me, women cross the border as soon as they are in labor. Presto,Change-o, instant citizen with all the access to America's welfare system-and the taxpayer picks up the tab.
5-This bill is NOT ABOUT HEALTH CARE! It has provisions to allow the federal government into your checkbook to deduct your healthcare costs, your medical records will be available in ways you have never imagined, a board of self important yahoos will be deciding who gets care and who doesn't, and even with all of this bs, they still aren't going to cover everybody. This is about CONTROL OF PEOPLE AND CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES. If it is so great, why isn't my dear friend, Nancy Pelosi, and others jumping on board?? Because they want this FOR YOU AND NOT 'THEM'. We-the great unwashed-will continue to pay for top of the line insurance for the ruling class.
6-If you think that you will keep the health insurance that you have now, think again. Cities, counties, and states will be dumping their minions onto the public option. All of the various forms of governmental sections are in financial trouble. So, why would they continue to fund health insurance when they can wipe their hands once and for all?? I retired from AT&T-I pay a portion to keep my health insurance. It costs them mightily for this and I can see the corporate world excercising their new found freedom.
7-I could not give a damn less if the President is black. What I don't like is all of his cronys lining up to line their pockets at the American people's expense. If all of this ***** petting feel good nonsense was working, California wouldn't be in the trouble we are in. We have already taxed the wealthy overseas or they simply aren't working. Nobody can be forced to go into business and employ people.
8-In case no one has figured it out-THE UNITED STATES IS BROKE!!! WE HAVE NO MONEY!!! WE HAVE MONEY WE ARE BORROWING FROM CHINA, RUSSIA, SAUDI ARABIA, ETC. Medicare is bankrupt. How do you get "funds" from a system that has none?? Yes! Creative accounting. In the old days, politicians went to jail for that. Now-they just print more paper.
9-Let's take a trip down memory lane....say 12 months ago. Remember TARP??? All those shovel ready jobs? Well, California is spending the money on keeping up appearances:ie government salaries, and green moments. Like producing a paper on what green energy can do. I hear a lot of other states are doing the same thing. Meanwhile, police, fire, and teachers have been laid off. The DMV is closed every Friday, and most other state offices are closed every other Friday. Oh-and state workers have taken a pay cut. There is also the California State Exhibition Center-where we hold the state fair. Well, we did. It is going up for sale. Meanwhile, back at the ranch:AIG needs more money:GMC-the company too big to fail-is laying people off and moving operations overseas: and Tim Geithner wants the debt ceiling raised because the US has hit critical mass. How IS that hope and change working out for everyone??
10-In case you make the mistake and call me a Republican-don't. I am a Libertarian. The closer we get to the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, and small government large individual, the better off we will be. In fact, we might actually find the United States Of America.
I am still proud of the citizens who refuse to be cowed and stand up and make their voices heard.

[Marksman84]

Excellent points

[muman]

Originally Posted by SpanielGirl

oookkkaaaayyy...since my original comment has morphed into a discussion of ObamaCare:I get my 2cents worth.
1-When has ANY government program ever done what it is supposed to do? And when has Congress kept their hands OFF THE MONEY???? Think the post office looses money because they can't handle it? No, Congress simply took their pot of money-and the USPS MAKES MONEY EVERY YEAR-and put the $$$ into the General Fund. Presto! Change-o! Now, Congress can AFFORD to cover contraception for wild horses, or new planes, or platinum commerative rings.
2-Do you really think that without training any more doctors, you can actually cover more patients? My mother was an RN. She should have gone to medical school but the cost to be a doctor couldn't square with a sick husband and raising a child. There is NOTHING to educate more doctors/nurses/surgical staff,etc. in this bill. And, once the Salary Czar says you aren't worth much;why oh why would anybody put 10-12 years of their life on hold for advanced surgical training. That is after 4 years of college and 5 years of internship. It's simple to be another lawyer and sue people.
3-Healthcare is expensive. Whether it is here, Canada, the UK, or Cuba. The difference in the US is that we treat everyone and you can be seen by a doctor or surgeon in a short period of time. I notice that nobody is driving to Montreal for care. In fact, we cannot keep foreign citizens OUT of our healthcare system. When Linda McCartney found out that she had breast cancer, there was a reason she came to New York for treatment. The British system DOESN'T. And thank God, Paul had the money to spend-because affected British women are supposed to show the stiff upper lip and soldier on.
4-No one gets turned away in the US. Including illegals. Ever been to a hospital in San Diego? I lived in SD for 4 years, and believe me, women cross the border as soon as they are in labor. Presto,Change-o, instant citizen with all the access to America's welfare system-and the taxpayer picks up the tab.
5-This bill is NOT ABOUT HEALTH CARE! It has provisions to allow the federal government into your checkbook to deduct your healthcare costs, your medical records will be available in ways you have never imagined, a board of self important yahoos will be deciding who gets care and who doesn't, and even with all of this bs, they still aren't going to cover everybody. This is about CONTROL OF PEOPLE AND CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES. If it is so great, why isn't my dear friend, Nancy Pelosi, and others jumping on board?? Because they want this FOR YOU AND NOT 'THEM'. We-the great unwashed-will continue to pay for top of the line insurance for the ruling class.
6-If you think that you will keep the health insurance that you have now, think again. Cities, counties, and states will be dumping their minions onto the public option. All of the various forms of governmental sections are in financial trouble. So, why would they continue to fund health insurance when they can wipe their hands once and for all?? I retired from AT&T-I pay a portion to keep my health insurance. It costs them mightily for this and I can see the corporate world excercising their new found freedom.
7-I could not give a damn less if the President is black. What I don't like is all of his cronys lining up to line their pockets at the American people's expense. If all of this ***** petting feel good nonsense was working, California wouldn't be in the trouble we are in. We have already taxed the wealthy overseas or they simply aren't working. Nobody can be forced to go into business and employ people.
8-In case no one has figured it out-THE UNITED STATES IS BROKE!!! WE HAVE NO MONEY!!! WE HAVE MONEY WE ARE BORROWING FROM CHINA, RUSSIA, SAUDI ARABIA, ETC. Medicare is bankrupt. How do you get "funds" from a system that has none?? Yes! Creative accounting. In the old days, politicians went to jail for that. Now-they just print more paper.
9-Let's take a trip down memory lane....say 12 months ago. Remember TARP??? All those shovel ready jobs? Well, California is spending the money on keeping up appearances:ie government salaries, and green moments. Like producing a paper on what green energy can do. I hear a lot of other states are doing the same thing. Meanwhile, police, fire, and teachers have been laid off. The DMV is closed every Friday, and most other state offices are closed every other Friday. Oh-and state workers have taken a pay cut. There is also the California State Exhibition Center-where we hold the state fair. Well, we did. It is going up for sale. Meanwhile, back at the ranch:AIG needs more money:GMC-the company too big to fail-is laying people off and moving operations overseas: and Tim Geithner wants the debt ceiling raised because the US has hit critical mass. How IS that hope and change working out for everyone??
10-In case you make the mistake and call me a Republican-don't. I am a Libertarian. The closer we get to the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, and small government large individual, the better off we will be. In fact, we might actually find the United States Of America.
I am still proud of the citizens who refuse to be cowed and stand up and make their voices heard.

I refuse to be cowed/scared by Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Michael Savage, and Rush Limbaugh, do you?

Health care is not as expensive outside the U.S. Why have Americans been going to Asia for hip replacements, etc? Same quality of care at about 10-20% the cost. I don't care what Glenn Beck tells you.

I wonder if you were this irritated with Bush/Cheney's un-'Patriot Act'? Do you like gov't agents listening in on US citizen phone calls?

What about gov't regulation of who can and can't get married, etc?

I respect Libertarians, but have more issues with Repubs, who tend to be
pretty inconsistent on the whole 'small government' thing. Are you truly a Libertarian? I've found that many who claim to be, aren't.

All I know is that we have serious problems with health care costs in this country...I work hard, don't have insurance and can't afford it. I was born, raised and lived about 90% of my life in Missouri, so I'm not illegal, or a foreigner, or any other hate object of rural white America. There are a lot of people out there like me who think something has got to change. I really don't care about the insurance execs...of course they probably don't care about me either. They're doing quite well the way things are.

BTW, what do you mean that your 'original comment has morphed into a discussion of Obamacare'? Isn't that the title of your thread?

[SpanielGirl]

I am not cowed by anyone. Of course healthcare isn't as expensive in other countries-people there usually don't make what Americans do. Have you ever thought? What if the operation is the same but the results are different?? Who ya gonna sue? Notice-this "healthcare" bill has nothing in it about tort reform. Obama and the Congress have REFUSED to entertain the thought, or have hearings on tort reform. Could it be because of big money donations?? As far as the government listening in on telephone conversations-I worked for AT&T,Pacific Bell, SBC, and finally AT&T. Believe me, people don't have that much important to say. And if you are a criminal, or a terrorist and you are stupid enough to plan over a telephone, then I say the arrest is simply getting the mental degenerents the help that they need. I could care less who does/doesn't marry who. No beastiality,no polygamy, don't frighten children or horses, and don't irritate dogs. I like the idea of civil and church marriages. Let the clerk/the church marry whomever they want. It is none of my business. I think that there needs to be reform in this country-but this is NOT it. Here's a start-let insurance companies sell catastrophic health insurance. That is what really makes people afraid. Right now, Congress has a law against it. Tort reform. Think those multi million dollar settlements go to people "wronged" by a doctor/hospital?Think again. Lawyers get their fees up front. Let me tell you about hourly billing, cost of professional witnesses, travel expenses, and on and on. The bottom feeders don't even have to go to court-just file the lawsuit and settle with the malpractice insurance. Whether the claim is real or not. As for you, while you may not have insurance, you CAN GET HEALTHCARE. As I stated, part of ObamaCare will require you, me, our neighbors, and anyone except a federal employee to fork over the infor on their checking account. And ObamaCare WILL BE DEDUCTING before you have a chance to spend it on something frivilous-like rent, food, or gas. And there is no provision on the "premiums". What the government is charging is what you will pay. I think 98% of Americans are smart enough to figure out how to get themselves medically covered. The only people that I worry about are the aged, or the ones with diseases like CP. This is precisely the ones that ObamaCare wants to kill off.

[OA 5599]

Healthcare spending per capita in the United States is the highest in the world, and twice that of many developed, first-world countries. Despite this, our average life expectancy is slightly higher than that of Cuba, where less than 1/10th of the money per capita we spend on healthcare is spent. See: Health Care Spending

To put it flatly, our system sucks. I once went to the doctor for a routine physical and was charged $150 for "outpatient surgery" to have a piece of earwax yanked out of my ear. This was on top of the normal cost of the physical. It took the doctor about 15 seconds. An acquaintance of mine was charged nearly $20,000 for a 2-hour gallstone surgery. Another acquaintance of mine, who had health insurance, suffered a badly broken leg and racked up nearly $200,000 in medical bills. The insurance company negotiated it down to $60,000. If this person had not had health insurance, they would have been stuck with a $200,000 bill and no possible way to every pay it back, and would have had ruined credit for life.

Someone mentioned that Americans do not leave the country for healthcare. That is completely wrong. When I lived in Texas my neighbor told me he took his daughter down to Mexico for dental work. In the States he would have spent $3-5 thousand dollars, but had it all done for a few hundred bucks south of the border. People routinely cross the border to Mexico and Canada to buy prescription medication for pennies on the dollar. Other people have even gone as far as to move to India, where even a social security check can provide top-notch healthcare to a ill retired person.

As it stands now, we pay a substantially more for a system that favors the rich and those with health insurance, and neglects everyone and anyone who is not so fortunate. Other countries have universal systems that cover everyone at a fraction of the cost of our current system. Someone mentioned ObamaCare wanting to "kill off" people who are sick. What exactly do you think happens to sick people now without health insurance? All over the Ozarks I see donation jars at grocery stores and gas stations for medical expenses for people with many diseases. Benefits are held in my hometown every year for the medical bills of uninsured or underinsured people with cancer or leukemia. They might cover some of the cost, but they can't make it all. As it stands right now in this country, if you are uninsured or underinsured and become chronically ill, you will be "killed off" by a lack of proper treatments.

Another argument I hear is that healthcare decisions on what treatments you get will be in "the hands of the government". That may be true, but if you have health insurance, your healthcare decisions are in their hands and their hands only. The difference is the health insurance company is concerned with profits and the bottom line, not your own personal health. Only if you are very wealthy in this country can you truly make your own healthcare decisions. I have no idea if the government would do a better job, but I personally woudln't want a "bean counter" to decide if an expesive treatment is worth it or not for me, regardless of if they were from the government or an insurance company.

Will ObamaCare fix this? I honestly have no idea. Something HAS to change, as our current system is horrible and oppressive, and nearly anything would be better than what we have now.

[MPLosAng]

There are truths in what everyone is expressing. No plan, government or not will be perfect but the fact is the current plan is not working and is highly over rated in terms of quality health care--unless you are half dead you will not receive preventative care/tests to find out if something serious is wrong until it is too late.
For every story (many exaggerated and also paid advertising from yours truly insurance companies) there are dozens of stories/rebuttals that clearly show those who pay for health care in this country are refused care for serious health problems e.g. cancer. Insurance companies pay big dollars to lobbyists, politicians, and to those who judicially challenge the insurance companies that are paid off to keep their mouths shut. If you can find it check out the interview with Cigna Health Ins. exec. who is now speaking out about how corrupt the insurance companies are (sorry cannot think of the guys name) a big eyeopener.

[SpanielGirl]

Here is some food for thought, originally posted on the Libertarian website.
The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare

posted by Donny Ferguson on Aug 14, 2009

Whole Foods CEO John Mackey lays out the problems with government-run health care, the need for serious reform and offers a libertarian alternative in a tremendous column in The Wall Street Journal. Click here to read the full column.

Mackey suggests Congress, among other things:

• Remove the legal obstacles that slow the creation of high-deductible health insurance plans and health savings accounts (HSAs).

• Equalize the tax laws so that that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits.

• Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines.

• Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover.

• Enact Medicare reform.

• Revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren’t covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children’s Health Insurance Program.

Mackey also writes:

...Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That’s because there isn’t any. This “right” has never existed in America

Even in countries like Canada and the U.K., there is no intrinsic right to health care. Rather, citizens in these countries are told by government bureaucrats what health-care treatments they are eligible to receive and when they can receive them. All countries with socialized medicine ration health care by forcing their citizens to wait in lines to receive scarce treatments...

...Health-care reform is very important. Whatever reforms are enacted it is essential that they be financially responsible, and that we have the freedom to choose doctors and the health-care services that best suit our own unique set of lifestyle choices. We are all responsible for our own lives and our own health. We should take that responsibility very seriously and use our freedom to make wise lifestyle choices that will protect our health. Doing so will enrich our lives and will help create a vibrant and sustainable American society.

So-what changes are YOU willing to make to your diet & excercise program? That is also part of healthcare.

[OA 5599]

Originally Posted by SpanielGirl

So-what changes are YOU willing to make to your diet & excercise program? That is also part of healthcare.

I work out 6 days a week, abstain from drinking soda, and enjoy a healthy diet besides my love of beer (which is healthy in moderation). I've been keeping this up for years now.

I still see little difference besides a government bureaucrat and an insurance company bean counter telling someone what procedures they can and can't have.

The Bill of Rights has no provision for healthcare because a "doctor" in those days would remove some blood if you were feeling bad, amputate your leg if you maimed it, or maybe prescribe some "snake oil", which was usually laced with alcohol or some other potent drug. Healthcare has changed immensely since the 18th centry. I personally believe that being cared for if you are ill should be a basic right to all of humanity, regardless of if it is in the Bill of Rights or not.

[MPLosAng]

Hmmm yes, insurance companies v. government, which is more corrupt? Its a toss. Having access to Westlaw and Lexis is an advantage with regard to insurance corruption (cases) but will government follow through with promises made to both sides of the health-issue spectrum?

SpanielGirl, Mackey's ideals seem good but it would also take government to implement the statutes/rules---peremptorily similar, wouldn't you say, regardless if it is fed or state?

Quitting cigarettes and figuring out what the hell I am going to do with my life next would make a world of difference to my health I'm sure but other than that, keeping physically fit/strong has always been an important factor. Junk food-X-evil...chocolate in small quantities heavenly and I cannot wait to try out the best b-b-q ribs KC has to offer! Any suggestions for my Sept. visit? The love connection travels a lost and doesn't seem to get out much...hmmm something to consider. : )