Missouri...Southern or Midwestern? (St. Louis, Springfield: homes, landscaping, living in)

[DocGSD]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

The northern half of Missouri is unquestionably Midwestern. But the southern half is a different story. By the time you reach the southern quarter Missouri becomes Missoura and one has crossed into Dixie.

Negitive. The further north is Missoura. I dont know anyone in the south that says it that way, its Missoureeee

[ShadowCaver]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias: The northern half of Missouri is unquestionably Midwestern. But the southern half is a different story. By the time you reach the southern quarter Missouri becomes Missoura and one has crossed into Dixie.

Originally Posted by Gsd353

Negitive. The further north is Missoura. I dont know anyone in the south that says it that way, its Missoureeee

Actually, IMHO, you both are somewhat correct, from my experience & recollection. Seems that older folks used the Missour-ah version, whereas younger folks went with Missour-ee; yet, in the southern half esp. in the more rural/backwoods areas, the -ah usage seemed higher by both. However, 'tis hard to say with absolute conviction that one area says this while another says that - due to people moving, etc., pronunciations get mixed and change over time, I believe.

For an in-depth article, give you have a comfortable chair, time, and some more time on hand, check out:
THE PRONOUCIATION OF MISSOURI:

[britdaw]

I have always thought of Missouri as a Southern state. I grew up in the bootheel of Missouri, and in my hometown and the towns surrounding up until you get to Sikeston, we all have a very thick Southern accent. I think it depends on the area of the state that you live in as far as how you perceive the state.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

The northern half of Missouri is unquestionably Midwestern. But the southern half is a different story. By the time you reach the southern quarter Missouri becomes Missoura and one has crossed into Dixie.

The southern quarter of Southern Missouri. That's much more close to the right answer I was looking for DefaultAtlas, glad we are finally almost on the same page. Taking the whole state into account, the southern quarter of Southern Missouri becomes a very minute portion of the state. For those very reasons I think it is safe to include Missouri in the Midwest. Dixie, while present in some of the state, does not come anywhere close to dominating this state, the Midwest is far more dominant.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by britdaw

I have always thought of Missouri as a Southern state. I grew up in the bootheel of Missouri, and in my hometown and the towns surrounding up until you get to Sikeston, we all have a very thick Southern accent. I think it depends on the area of the state that you live in as far as how you perceive the state.

Yup. THat's exactly what I observed about those areas of Missouri as well. Most of the state however from what I've seen is a lot different than that area. That's not a bad part of the state at all...you actually reside in the few parts of Missouri that have sweet tea, which I love to death. I always stop at Lambert's Cafe there whenever I pass through that area on I-55 on the way to Memphis. SE Missouri is beautiful from what I noticed, very flat and the sky seems big. Hopefully it will stay that way as long as the New Madrid fault remains quiet. Here in St. Louis, Cracker Barrels are the only place to get sweet tea. Sweet tea needs to become available I think everywhere. Splenda and Equal, or any type of sugar put in cold iced tea just doesn't get that sweet mouthwatering flavor...oh well...probably will take another drive down there this summer

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by ShadowCaver

Actually, IMHO, you both are somewhat correct, from my experience & recollection. Seems that older folks used the Missour-ah version, whereas younger folks went with Missour-ee; yet, in the southern half esp. in the more rural/backwoods areas, the -ah usage seemed higher by both. However, 'tis hard to say with absolute conviction that one area says this while another says that - due to people moving, etc., pronunciations get mixed and change over time, I believe.

For an in-depth article, give you have a comfortable chair, time, and some more time on hand, check out:
THE PRONOUCIATION OF MISSOURI:

Is Missour-ah really a way to distinguish southern speech patterns? I thought that Missour-ah was more kind of a fad of the state. I've heard many people pronounce it that way from all parts of the state, regardless of dialect. I think it's kind of an in-the-state thing and has less to do with dialect. I've heard that the Missour-ah pronunciation grew out of the way Missouri's French settlers pronounced it. Kind of does make sense if you think about it. I've never heard Missouri called "Missourah" by people from the Southern states....anyways....that's just my experience.

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by ajf131

The southern quarter of Southern Missouri. That's much more close to the right answer I was looking for DefaultAtlas, glad we are finally almost on the same page. Taking the whole state into account, the southern quarter of Southern Missouri becomes a very minute portion of the state. For those very reasons I think it is safe to include Missouri in the Midwest. Dixie, while present in some of the state, does not come anywhere close to dominating this state, the Midwest is far more dominant.

Lol. I really hate to burst your bubble but you clearly misinterpreted my previous post. Probably did it on purpose.

Let me break it down for you. Assuming all of Missouri adds up to 100%:

The northern half of the state of Missoura is unquestionably Midwestern. Thus, we can assume 50% of Missouri is in the Midwest.

The southern half of the state of Missouri has southern influences. Thus, we can assume 50% of Missouri has southern influences.

The southern quarter of Missouri is, for all intensive purposes, The South. Thus, at least 25% of Missoura is in the South and at most 50% of Missoura can be considered southern.

Hope this helps.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

Lol. I really hate to burst your bubble but you clearly misinterpreted my previous post. Probably did it on purpose.

Let me break it down for you. Assuming all of Missouri adds up to 100%:

The northern half of the state of Missoura is unquestionably Midwestern. Thus, we can assume 50% of Missouri is in the Midwest.

The southern half of the state of Missouri has southern influences. Thus, we can assume 50% of Missouri has southern influences.

The southern quarter of Missouri is, for all intensive purposes, The South. Thus, at least 25% of Missoura is in the South and at most 50% of Missoura can be considered southern.

Hope this helps.

In that case, I disagree. It's not a literal 50-50 divide. far from it. Southern Missouri starting immediately below Jefferson City doesn't equal anywhere close to Dixie. It starts out Midwestern than gradually transitions into the South over about 100 miles , in my view at least, and this does not apply to SW MO. So in short, I disagree strongly. The Midwestern element doesn't immediately evaporate below St. Louis. There is barely even a Southern element to St. Louis. Below St. Louis it starts out Midwestern and gradually transitions to Southern over a period of about 100 miles. Once Missouri's eastern border changes over from Illinois to Kentucky, the state to me at least takes on a true Dixie demeanor. So in essence, Dixie is not dominant in most of Missouri. The Midwest has a stronger influence overall in most of the state. Also, way to go on STL's average 14 inch snowfall...why don't you go look up the definition of "Bad data"...i provided some more accurate data back in the "which states do you consider south" discussion in the general us forum...two seasons old...but hardly anything different from the current average. As of 2004-2005, 18.6 inches is the true average snowfall...this is going back from when it first recorded in 1885. Add in the last two seasons of snowfall, 13.3 inches this year and 10.5 last year, divide by 122 seasons, and you get a current average of 18.49 inches of snowfall, maybe .1 to .3 less than that depending on if it's been 122 or 124 seens since 1885, too tired to think, but in case its 124, your answer is 18.2 inches averaged. that's quite a bit different from 10 inches. If you go back to 1833, this average should likely climb a significant amount since it was snowier back in those days. That places us pretty close to something in between Indy and Louisville in terms of snowfall Cincinnati and Kansas City are relatively close to STL in terms of climate. Louisville's winters are noticeably milder than all three of these cities, however they also are relatively colder and snowier than most Southern cities not in mountain ranges. Half of Indiana has southern influences too, but they do not overpower Midwestern ones or tie them...sweet tea is found as far north as Cloverdale, Indiana. If half of Missouri has southern influences, they do not overpower the Midwestern ones or tie them for a significant part IMO of Southern Missouri at least until you get near Arkansas, thus I think that still makes Missouri a generally Midwestern state. Most of Missouri's eastern and western borders consist of Illinois and Kansas. That to me is another argument for making it overall Midwestern, while taking into account SE Missouri and the bootheel being more Southern.

[ShadowCaver]

Originally Posted by ajf131

Is Missour-ah really a way to distinguish southern speech patterns? I thought that Missour-ah was more kind of a fad of the state. I've heard many people pronounce it that way from all parts of the state, regardless of dialect. I think it's kind of an in-the-state thing and has less to do with dialect. I've heard that the Missour-ah pronunciation grew out of the way Missouri's French settlers pronounced it. Kind of does make sense if you think about it. I've never heard Missouri called "Missourah" by people from the Southern states....anyways....that's just my experience.

Curious as to your definition of "a fad of the state"? Could you please expand on that? Thanks!

As to not hearing Missour-ah from anyone from a Southern state,,, when I lived in NE 'bama, I did hear such there, when friends/coworkers/neighbors/etc would discuss where my roots where. I'd say roughly 1/3 would use the -ah vs. the -ee ending. BTW, not that he is really from the South [Texas], but GWB himself uses the -ah ending.

Your statement of hearing it from all parts of the state does jive w/ my comment that I've heard it also all over the state due to people moving, etc., so I believe on that point we agree.

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by ajf131

In that case, I disagree. It's not a literal 50-50 divide. far from it. Southern Missouri starting immediately below Jefferson City doesn't equal anywhere close to Dixie. It starts out Midwestern than gradually transitions into the South over about 100 miles , in my view at least, and this does not apply to SW MO. So in short, I disagree strongly. The Midwestern element doesn't immediately evaporate below St. Louis. There is barely even a Southern element to St. Louis. Below St. Louis it starts out Midwestern and gradually transitions to Southern over a period of about 100 miles. Once Missouri's eastern border changes over from Illinois to Kentucky, the state to me at least takes on a true Dixie demeanor. So in essence, Dixie is not dominant in most of Missouri. The Midwest has a stronger influence overall in most of the state. Also, way to go on STL's average 14 inch snowfall...why don't you go look up the definition of "Bad data"...i provided some more accurate data back in the "which states do you consider south" discussion in the general us forum...two seasons old...but hardly anything different from the current average. As of 2004-2005, 18.6 inches is the true average snowfall...this is going back from when it first recorded in 1885. Add in the last two seasons of snowfall, 13.3 inches this year and 10.5 last year, divide by 122 seasons, and you get a current average of 18.49 inches of snowfall, maybe .1 to .3 less than that depending on if it's been 122 or 124 seens since 1885, too tired to think, but in case its 124, your answer is 18.2 inches averaged. that's quite a bit different from 10 inches. If you go back to 1833, this average should likely climb a significant amount since it was snowier back in those days. That places us pretty close to something in between Indy and Louisville in terms of snowfall Cincinnati and Kansas City are relatively close to STL in terms of climate. Louisville's winters are noticeably milder than all three of these cities, however they also are relatively colder and snowier than most Southern cities not in mountain ranges. Half of Indiana has southern influences too, but they do not overpower Midwestern ones or tie them...sweet tea is found as far north as Cloverdale, Indiana. If half of Missouri has southern influences, they do not overpower the Midwestern ones or tie them for a significant part IMO of Southern Missouri at least until you get near Arkansas, thus I think that still makes Missouri a generally Midwestern state. Most of Missouri's eastern and western borders consist of Illinois and Kansas. That to me is another argument for making it overall Midwestern, while taking into account SE Missouri and the bootheel being more Southern.

Southern Missouri has a Southern climate. I would say that Indianapolis is about as far south as significantly cold and snowy winters get. Indy is known for being a city with horrible winter weather. St. Louis isn't. Louisville isn't. Both cities are far south enough to get some mild days in between. And hey, we get snow and cold here in Nashville too. I guess that qualifies us a Northern state now?

Of course Indiana's Southern influnences don't overpower it. Indiana isn't a Southern state! Geographically speaking, all of Kentucky lies at the same latitude as Missouri.

A key component to the Midwest is its landscape. Full Midwestern states like Illinois and Indiana are flat to gently rolling, with steep hills only in the southern unglaciated areas. A good portion of southern Missouri is forested and features low MOUNTAINS, with peaks that far exceed any hill in Indiana or Illinois.

Indianapolis is a Great Lakes region city and is perhaps about as Midwest as a city can get. I doubt St. Louisians can say the same.

There's a transition zone from, say St. Louis on southward. By the time you reach the southern quarter of Missoura, you're DEFINITELY in Dixie.

The influences are there. Whether you feel those are Midwestern or Southern influnences is completely up to you. Driving on I-55 along the delta cottonfields of Scott County sure doesn't feel Midwestern to me.