Missouri...Southern or Midwestern? (St. Louis, Springfield: home, live, gardening)

[ShadowCaver]

IMHO, trying to force an entire state to be this or that is for the most part kinda silly. As mentioned before, Missouree has parts and flavours of the midwest, of the south, of the east, and even of the plains states. It is truly an area with many transitions. The boothill area, while flat w/ endless blue skies similar to that found in the northern parts, is culturally very different. KC and StL, while both cities of good sizes, are also more different than similar. Meanwhile, it seems to me that Columbia and Springfield, while in two different distinct areas, have more in common than not. In any case, quite interesting and cool to see different thoughts of what different people have to say about the same place . Reminds me of the tale of the blind men and the elephant; different viewpoints + different experiences gives different perspectives regarding the same 'creature'.


btw, as to StL not getting terrible winter weather,,, ummm,,, I would disagree there. I will gladly take the snows here in NE Indiana vs. what my folks got recently and I recall getting of the freezing rain and snow mixtures. Guess depends upon what you mean by 'horrible'.

[la_missourienne]

Shadow Caver, just wanted to say that the article you sent link for is highly interesting and gives a very detailed explanation. I've always wondered why people even said Missour-ah in the first place, so thank you! I first chuckled at someone else suggesting it came from the French pronunciation--made me think of my recent experiences there. In France nowadays, if they ask you where you are from and you say the state name under either of those pronunciations (esp. the -ah ending), they (usually) get a funny look on their face, much like a dog that has just heard a strange sound. Reason being is, 'ss' is never a 'zz' type sound in French, therefore, the word is confusing for them. If you then indicate where the state is, the light bulb will come on and they will proclaim, "Ah, Meesssooree, oui!" Now, after reading the article, I saw that in fact it was altogether a different ending back in history with the French and our state--they had -ais, which would give an "ay" (like the letter 'A') sound, so they may in fact be in part to blame.
Now I just want to know why it is in Southern MO that people say 'sail/sale' as though it were 'sell'...and where did we ever get a 'r' in the middle of 'wash'? On another funny note, I swear, when I lived in Springfield, there once was actual lettering done on a sign for a gas station on N. Glenstone Ave. that indicated that they were offering some sort of "CAR WARSH" special (yes, seriously, just like that ) Any etymolgists out there that can find the reason for these? Shadow Caver? To me, these pronunciations seem of Southern influence, so from the language standpoint, I could see how the Southern quarter or so of Missouri could be classified as part of "the South" instead of the Midwest...

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by la_missourienne

...I could see how the Southern quarter or so of Missouri could be classified as part of "the South" instead of the Midwest...

Shh! Don't let ajf hear you say that!

[ShadowCaver]

la_missourienne Was funny, when growing up and visiting the rest of the family that remained in the StL area, during reunions and the such, I was teased quite abit regarding my 'country/southern' slang and such. So, like said before, its all relative - no pun intended. Youngest boy [8 yo] still pronounces milk as meelk, altho' only lived in 'bama for a few years. I think its kinda cute & neat. Gives more richness to life w/ all the different ways that people talk.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

Southern Missouri has a Southern climate. I would say that Indianapolis is about as far south as significantly cold and snowy winters get. Indy is known for being a city with horrible winter weather. St. Louis isn't. Louisville isn't. Both cities are far south enough to get some mild days in between. And hey, we get snow and cold here in Nashville too. I guess that qualifies us a Northern state now?

Of course Indiana's Southern influnences don't overpower it. Indiana isn't a Southern state! Geographically speaking, all of Kentucky lies at the same latitude as Missouri.

A key component to the Midwest is its landscape. Full Midwestern states like Illinois and Indiana are flat to gently rolling, with steep hills only in the southern unglaciated areas. A good portion of southern Missouri is forested and features low MOUNTAINS, with peaks that far exceed any hill in Indiana or Illinois.

Indianapolis is a Great Lakes region city and is perhaps about as Midwest as a city can get. I doubt St. Louisians can say the same.

There's a transition zone from, say St. Louis on southward. By the time you reach the southern quarter of Missoura, you're DEFINITELY in Dixie.

The influences are there. Whether you feel those are Midwestern or Southern influnences is completely up to you. Driving on I-55 along the delta cottonfields of Scott County sure doesn't feel Midwestern to me.

The NW corner of Illinois is also quite hilly, reminds me of the Branson area actually. However, nothing we have here compares to the Ozarks. BUT, there are also parts of Missouri that are flat as a pancake too, definitely midwestern in looks. With that being said, I think the northern parts are more midwestern, the southern parts (Gainesville, etc) are southern.

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

The NW corner of Illinois is also quite hilly, reminds me of the Branson area actually. However, nothing we have here compares to the Ozarks. BUT, there are also parts of Missouri that are flat as a pancake too, definitely midwestern in looks. With that being said, I think the northern parts are more midwestern, the southern parts (Gainesville, etc) are southern.

I agree but I would place the definitive Midwest-South boundary right at Cape Girardeau. When you're south of Cape Girardeau, you know you've entered Dixie.

[GraniteStater]

Areas south of Lebanon also feel more southern to me as well. I would say speech patterns in areas south of I-44 more closely resemble those of the south and not the midwest. Once you get to highway 60 and points south the southern influence becomes stronger and their tends to be more people living in rural areas with few jobs. This is VERY similar to what you find in other areas of the rural south.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

Southern Missouri has a Southern climate. I would say that Indianapolis is about as far south as significantly cold and snowy winters get. Indy is known for being a city with horrible winter weather. St. Louis isn't. Louisville isn't. Both cities are far south enough to get some mild days in between. And hey, we get snow and cold here in Nashville too. I guess that qualifies us a Northern state now?

Of course Indiana's Southern influnences don't overpower it. Indiana isn't a Southern state! Geographically speaking, all of Kentucky lies at the same latitude as Missouri.

A key component to the Midwest is its landscape. Full Midwestern states like Illinois and Indiana are flat to gently rolling, with steep hills only in the southern unglaciated areas. A good portion of southern Missouri is forested and features low MOUNTAINS, with peaks that far exceed any hill in Indiana or Illinois.

Indianapolis is a Great Lakes region city and is perhaps about as Midwest as a city can get. I doubt St. Louisians can say the same.

There's a transition zone from, say St. Louis on southward. By the time you reach the southern quarter of Missoura, you're DEFINITELY in Dixie.

The influences are there. Whether you feel those are Midwestern or Southern influnences is completely up to you. Driving on I-55 along the delta cottonfields of Scott County sure doesn't feel Midwestern to me.

Did you not read my statement earlier. I never denied the area of Scott County wasn't Southern I agree that is Dixie. What I'm not agreeing on is all of Southern Missouri being just like it or something even close to it. St. Louis feels like a true Midwestern city to me. Nothing about it is Dixie to me at all. If Missouri were even close to half-dominated by Dixie, then maybe I'd agree on it a modern-day border state and not a part of the Midwest. But until I see the entire southern half of Missouri exhibiting all the characteristics of the Scott County area, which is a true part of Dixie, I don't see a reason to call it most of the parts above Southern Missouri more Dixie or even 50-50 split. Most of Missouri is more Midwestern than it is Southern, and the Midwest dominates significantly more of this state than Dixie. Some parts of the state can be considered southern, the vast majority cannot be at least in my book. It's that simple.

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by ajf131

Did you not read my statement earlier. I never denied the area of Scott County wasn't Southern I agree that is Dixie. What I'm not agreeing on is all of Southern Missouri being just like it or something even close to it. St. Louis feels like a true Midwestern city to me. Nothing about it is Dixie to me at all. If Missouri were even close to half-dominated by Dixie, then maybe I'd agree on it a modern-day border state and not a part of the Midwest. But until I see the entire southern half of Missouri exhibiting all the characteristics of the Scott County area, which is a true part of Dixie, I don't see a reason to call it most of the parts above Southern Missouri more Dixie or even 50-50 split. Most of Missouri is more Midwestern than it is Southern, and the Midwest dominates significantly more of this state than Dixie. Some parts of the state can be considered southern, the vast majority cannot be at least in my book. It's that simple.

Look man--the entire southern half of Missouri is NOT Dixie. What I'm arguing is that the area from St. Louis to Cape Girardeau is the transition zone with southern features. Only the southern quarter, maybe from Cape Girardeau on south is truly Dixie. Suggesting that the southern half of Missouri features Southern influences isn't the same as calling it Southern. St. Louis is a Midwestern city, but that doesn't mean that it can't have Southern influences either, can it?

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by DefaultAlias

Look man--the entire southern half of Missouri is NOT Dixie. What I'm arguing is that the area from St. Louis to Cape Girardeau is the transition zone with southern features. Only the southern quarter, maybe from Cape Girardeau on south is truly Dixie. Suggesting that the southern half of Missouri features Southern influences isn't the same as calling it Southern. St. Louis is a Midwestern city, but that doesn't mean that it can't have Southern influences either, can it?

Homestore.com: Lawn & Gardening - Climate Zones
Image:Southern American English.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In that case, Default, I agree with what you're saying. Now we are in agreement about Southern Missouri. Here is actually a climatological map of the United States also to further clarify what climatological zones Missouri lies in. As you can see on here, Kentucky, extreme Northern Arkanas, and roughly the Southern halves of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio have the same gardening characteristics in common with each other. Cities in this zone are St. Louis, Springfield, IL, Indianapolis, Columbus appears to be half in it, Cincinnati, Louisville, Lexington, etc. Our climate seems to be best described as a "Middle Climate" I'd say. The vast majority of the south does not share these patterns. Climatologically missouri is roughly half, maybe a little less, between more of a Northern climate and more of a roughly mid climate. Here iis the Southern American English dialect map of Missouri as well. You can clearly tell from this map that Southern speech patterns exist in less than half the state. Most dialect maps will tell you roughly the same as this map. Also, Default, I never disagreed about the Southern quarter of Missouri not being Southern, indeed I think most of it is Dixie. It's most of Southern Missouri being Dixie that I disagree about. You are right, from St. Louis to Cape Giraerdeau to me seems to be a transition zone from the Midwest to the South. THe further south you go, the less Midwest it gets and the more Dixie it gets. By the time you are in the "Southern quarter" of Missouri yes it is unquestionably Dixie, and I don't have a problem with that. People...I'm not afraid of "Southerness," I just don't think it the Dixie element is the dominant one in most areas above the region DefaultAlias is describing as Dixie...which I AGREE WITH! Apologize for the failure to communicate Default.