Martial Arts Myths Discredited By The UFC? (effective, fight, techniques)
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The thread is trying to discredit "myths" and my point was to say that the Koryu Arts are being bunched in with the poor excuses for martial arts of today here in the west.
The only thing that gets discredited is what is being passed as "traditional martial arts" these days.
These "arts" are without true martial focus and essence. They are the result of what westerners were taught initially by the Asians.
They left out what was important and merely taught the movement of the art without the keys to unlocking the martial content within those movements.
When you are looking at a "kata" or form, you are seeing what is apparent to you - blocks, punches, kicks. Whether it is Karate, Chinese Boxing or Tae Kwon Do - you are looking at what makes up the art.
These Kata, called Kuen in Chinese and Hyung in Korean, are maps and catalogs of all the techniques that exist within each art. To think that they are mere blocks, punches and kicks is to be deceived. And deception was the purpose of the development of Forms.
The problem is that everyone excepted what they were being taught as "art" definitively and did not take it upon themselves to discover the underlying nature of their art.
This is what is proven to be ineffective in the street. These arts are what is called "traditional" and are used as the measuring stick for all the "traditional" arts.
I personally do not use this term "traditional" and prefer to call my arts Classical, as in the Classics - Art, Theatre, Literature, Music. These Classics are the Foundation of today's "entertainment" industry.
People are often heard saying "it's not like the old days", when referring to today's Music, Movies, etc.
The same applies to the Martial Arts.
I specialize in the arts of Okinawa and China.
The Okinawan Arts were developed within the Castles of the Ryukyu Kingdoms, by the King's Guards and Healing Arts Practitioners.
They used the knowledge of Anatomy, Acupuncture, Bone Setting, etc - to determine how the body would react if manipulated in a particular fashion. This information was put into a format, aka - Kata = Forms.
Each Castle had it's own group of Royal Guards and they were considered Noblemen. They lived in the Castles with their Families. My Art's lineage is from the Chibana Castle. On the Chinese side, my art's lineage is from the Iron Guard - the Taiwan Republic's Presidential Security Cadre.
These arts were developed on the field.
What the MMA's competitors of today don't realize is that ALL of the techniques found in MMA are from the Classical Arts. None of it is new. The only thing that is new is the set of rules that make it a sport.
Karate is a Grappling Art. It is NOT a Kick/block/punch art.
There is no word for "block" in Okinawan Arts terminology. The term used is "UKE" ( oo-keh ) and it means: receive, parry. The techniques you see that look like blocks are parry and seize/control techniques. Sure, they can be blocks but that is not what they were meant to be.
MMA dictates that you must have a "stand up game" and a "ground game", a grappling art, and a striking art.
Classical Martial Arts contain ALL these things and more. They contain techniques for ground fighting, striking at vital points, small joint manipulation, arm and leg trapping - all the things necessary for you to protect your life and those you love.
There are very few practitioners in the US that have this kind of knowledge but if you can find someone train under that person you will understand Martial Truth.
^ in a nutshell, THIS (that they do it better in Asia) is what has been discredited by MMA.
What works in a real fight? We do not know from the UFC, that is a fact.
Facts, %95 of all fights go to the ground was a myth proven in a study done by a PHD printed in Black Belt Magazine.
Fact, military arts tell you to avoid the ground at all cost and teach combative styles such as Kenpo, Krav maga and Systema. The Gracies had their best fighters in the first UFCs and hand picked the opponents.
Fact, UFC showed that narrowly focused styles are going to lose. Many styles had more diverse attributes to their styles and were labeled one thing or another for the purpose of propaganda alone. Work in any form of real world combat and you will see that the UFC is a great sport, but even police officers are being taught now to avoid MMA tactics in the street as they bring your opponent too close to your weapons and the ground is a very bad place to be for many reasons. Want reality, talk to someone who has used CQC for real, not in a ring or in a "brawl". Even a bouncer does things the BJJ fanboys claim to be impossible, and they do it daily. Again though, UFC is a great sport, but let's remember, it was propaganda for the Gracies to sell their art.
Fact, military arts tell you to avoid the ground at all cost and teach combative styles such as Kenpo, Krav maga and Systema. The Gracies had their best fighters in the first UFCs and hand picked the opponents.
WRONG! sure israeli martial arts are taught in the israeli military (krav maga) but about 75% of all militaries teach ground fighting as a central basis to their training. even krav maga has ground fighting techniques. the us militarys modern army combatives #1 focus is based on gracie jiu jitsu with a mix of kali, muay thai, boxing, judo and wrestling. they actually specify for you to attempt to take your opponent to the ground. (i am a discharged us army ranger, i know a little about what H2H they teach).
FACT: royce gracie was not, is not "their best fighters" in the ufc. rickson, rolls, rorian, are all BY FAR better then royce. the reason royce was put into the cage was because he was the most "average fighter" and "average size fighter" of all of helio gracies kids. yeah i read that article also, the one about how the gracies hand picked their opponents LOL.
FACT: police officers are being taught GRACIE JIU JITSU. (my best friend is an instructor for the houston police department. officer david mike lopez). they teach a mix of GJJ, boxing and wrestling (hmmmm MMA?) as a mater of fact they even have the "servicemans games" where they have the fire department and police compete against each other in all sorts of events including jiu jitsu competitions, and amature mma events.
IMO i think you have read one to many articles in BB mag and are confused.
while this says that 90-95% of fights hitting the ground is a bit to high it also says that in a street fight a person has a 72% chance of hitting the ground but only 42% of the time both parties did.
Quote:
Do not be the first person to hit the ground!
So, there you have it; an exploratory study to try to find out if 90 to 95 percent of fights end up on the ground. The results offered in this study indicate that 90 to 95 percent is too high of a percentage rate. It is probably closer to 42% where both fighters hit the ground and 72% where at least one fighter ends up on the ground.
In the final analysis, an overwhelming majority of fights did end where at least one fighter ended up on the ground at some point. As this was an exploratory study, more are definitely needed to explore this topic and other grappling or MMA related issues. However, what was probably the most important finding in this study is that if you are untrained and are the first person to end up on the ground in a fight there is a good chance that you will lose and the best you can hope for is that no victor can be declared.
the author actually states that ground fighting was a MUST to learn for self defense.
I studied Ninjutsu for 6 years and just gave it up. I made it to red belt and realized that there was far too much time put into etiquette, standing around, learning very complicated moves, etc. We did randori with 5 or 6 people standing around in a circle with one in the middle. Not very real. We NEVER did one-to-one randori or any ground work.
WAY too many techniques, too, in my opinion.
The thing felt like a belt chase. I learned some good basics but don't have confidence that this stuff would work on the street.
Last edited by CowtownDude; 09-15-2010 at 10:03 AM..
What works in a real fight? We do not know from the UFC, that is a fact.
Facts, %95 of all fights go to the ground was a myth proven in a study done by a PHD printed in Black Belt Magazine.
Fact, military arts tell you to avoid the ground at all cost and teach combative styles such as Kenpo, Krav maga and Systema. The Gracies had their best fighters in the first UFCs and hand picked the opponents.
Fact, UFC showed that narrowly focused styles are going to lose. Many styles had more diverse attributes to their styles and were labeled one thing or another for the purpose of propaganda alone. Work in any form of real world combat and you will see that the UFC is a great sport, but even police officers are being taught now to avoid MMA tactics in the street as they bring your opponent too close to your weapons and the ground is a very bad place to be for many reasons. Want reality, talk to someone who has used CQC for real, not in a ring or in a "brawl". Even a bouncer does things the BJJ fanboys claim to be impossible, and they do it daily. Again though, UFC is a great sport, but let's remember, it was propaganda for the Gracies to sell their art.
I'm not disagreeing with everything you're saying, BUT in a one on one confrontation - be it on the street or a friendly "match", I'll take my wrestling and limited jiujitsu over an opponent's Krav, or Karate, or anything like that. In fact, i'd take my wrestling alone over military style CQC or "hand to hand."
This is reality:
If you think that the "best fighters" are SWAT team members and Israli Special Forces, trained primarily in "police tactics", you are wrong.
Even if you allowed "illegal moves" (groin, eyes, ect.), you put some "military CQC specialist" in a cage in the UFC, he would be about as successful as James Toney. Never forget that.
Fighters in the UFC (or other pro MMA promotions) ARE the best "fighters" in the world, and they train daily to fight against the best fighters in the world. Never forget that.
And, finally, you say that we do not know what works in a real fight from watching UFC. That might be true. But the UFC is a reflecion of the reality that WRESTLING works in a real fight; a combination of boxing and wrestling works better; and a combination of boxing, wrestling, and jiujitsu works even better, and now you have entered the realm of MMA.
Beyond this,simply a hard poke below the Adams apple with the extended thumb of a clenched fist.Give your throat a firm tap below the apple and then imagine what a hard poke with the thumb will feel like.
In a fight, you instinctively try to protect your throat and eyes and so does an attacker. It is much easier to talk about poking throats than it is to actually pull off.
MMA is still a sport.It is pretty close to self defense,but without groin kicks,eye gouging,finger breaking,etc,it is still a ways from true self defense.The full guard isn't really going to be much defense against a guy intent on seriously hurting you,especially if he has a knife in his pocket.And full guard is a death trap if the other guy has a buddy willing to kick you in the head while you are trying to pull guard on his friend.
1) MMA training is a lot harder than most self-defense classes. You learn how to throw a punch a lot more effectively from a MMA class than you do at a self-defense seminar at the YMCA.
2) If you are familiar with Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, you learn joint locks and choke holds. It does not take a member of MENSA to break a finger and even less so if you are already trained in a martial art that excels at breaking bones.
3) Eye gouging and throat poking are not some mysterious art.
In a fight, you instinctively try to protect your throat and eyes and so does an attacker. It is much easier to talk about poking throats than it is to actually pull off.
MMA is still a sport.It is pretty close to self defense,but without groin kicks,eye gouging,finger breaking,etc,it is still a ways from true self defense.The full guard isn't really going to be much defense against a guy intent on seriously hurting you,especially if he has a knife in his pocket.And full guard is a death trap if the other guy has a buddy willing to kick you in the head while you are trying to pull guard on his friend.
1) MMA training is a lot harder than most self-defense classes. You learn how to throw a punch a lot more effectively from a MMA class than you do at a self-defense seminar at the YMCA.
2) If you are familiar with Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, you learn joint locks and choke holds. It does not take a member of MENSA to break a finger and even less so if you are already trained in a martial art that excels at breaking bones.
3) Eye gouging and throat poking are not some mysterious art.
there are two kinds of apologists on MMA forums, BOXING apologists and the less common, but equally clueless "REALITY" apologists. they are the ones who make themselves appear to believe that, armed with the secret of the groin kick and the eye gouge, that they can defeat someone who is bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter, and trained in the skills and physicalities of hand to hand combat.
while this says that 90-95% of fights hitting the ground is a bit to high it also says that in a street fight a person has a 72% chance of hitting the ground but only 42% of the time both parties did.
the author actually states that ground fighting was a MUST to learn for self defense.
It goes without saying though that the emphasis in a street fight, should be to get up FAST. In that situation you have to ask is an elite BJJ level of ground fighting truely necessary? Mastery in the core basics is all that is needed IMO.
Last edited by archineer; 09-19-2010 at 09:51 AM..
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