When is Jean Claude Van Damme going to fight? (jiu jitsu, Muay Thai, effective)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't understand why Bruce Lee always gets respect from MMA fans.
You do understand that Bruce laid the groundwork for all of this MMA stuff, right? I mean, he introduced new concepts that are being taught to our special forces. You understand that, right? You understand that there are guys who practice Wing Chun exclusively that have such good structure and sensitivity that they would dismantle all of your beloved MMA heroes in a "real" fight, right?
These guys were both taught by Dan Inosanto and currently teach America's special forces. These guys are not "MMA" fighters. They are efficient killing machines.
I think guys like Tim Kennedy would beg to differ on all that Wing chun mess being taught to SF, or that those guys would do anything to a mma fighter.
None of that stuff is actually taught to any special ops soldiers. As an army ranger I can tell you they also do not teach any of that silly stuff to any military I know of.
My sons judo instructor was selected as a hand to hand combat instructor in the 1980's both for the 75th ranger regiment and for sf schools. He would laugh at your wing chun. Most of the military's combatives was based around judo and boxing combined. Now the MACP is based on Bjj, judo, wrestling, muay Thai, and escrima. Some other techniques are added in to the SF programs for a bit more CQC type situations of hand to hand. Most of which incorporate fire arms as weapons in addition to knifes.
I think guys like Tim Kennedy would beg to differ on all that Wing chun mess being taught to SF, or that those guys would do anything to a mma fighter.
Francis Fong doesn't teach Wing Chun to special forces. Though there are undoubtedly Wing Chun principles and concepts (center line, adhesion, etc.) embedded in all his teachings. Fong does everything. If you had watched the video, you would have seen that he wasn't focusing on Chi Sau and trapping exclusively. He was also focusing on grappling and submission. This whole idea of "mixed-martial arts" wouldn't even exist had it not been for Bruce, and then Dan taking it to the next level, and then Fong going even further.
And there are guys who are good enough to beat MMA fighters relying just on Wing Chun (Fong being one of those guys). But that obviously depends on the fighter, not the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
None of that stuff is actually taught to any special ops soldiers. As an army ranger I can tell you they also do not teach any of that silly stuff to any military I know of.
I didn't say that Wing Chun is taught to special forces. I said that Dan Inosanto trained the guys who teach special forces. And Fong, who was trained by Inosanto, also teaches special forces, and a lot of Wing Chun permeates his teachings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
My sons judo instructor was selected as a hand to hand combat instructor in the 1980's both for the 75th ranger regiment and for sf schools. He would laugh at your wing chun.
Your son's judo instructor? Now it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
Most of the military's combatives was based around judo and boxing combined.
This all depends on the person doing the instructing, right? Their bias is going to come out in their teaching. Most artists will dabble in a number of arts, so it's not like that submission technique you learned comes exclusively from one style. The martial arts change just like rap music, or basketball, or dances. People adapt things to work for them. So much of what anybody gets (unless you're doing straight Wing Chun or straight TKD) is a medley of things from across the spectrum. Some instructors will incorporate elements of Krav or even Shotokan. It all depends on what they've been exposed to and what their biases are.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2012 at 10:05 AM..
As an army ranger I can tell you they also do not teach any of that silly stuff to any military I know of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
My sons judo instructor was selected as a hand to hand combat instructor in the 1980's both for the 75th ranger regiment and for sf schools. He would laugh at your wing chun.
Quote:
Sifu Francis is a certified Head Police Defensive Tactics Instructor and has trained police officers, S.W.A.T. teams, and "Fort Benning Rangers" in close quarters tactics. Due to his background and experience, the U.S. Army sought his help in updating of an Army training manual to include principles of Wing Chun, Muay Thai and Filipino Kali.
Sifu Francis is the Georgia Representative for Guro Dan Inosanto with Full Instructor ranking in both Filipino martial arts and Jun Fan Gung Fu (JKD Concepts). Sifu Francis is an instructor in Muay Thai and also the Southeastern representative for the Thai Boxing Association U.S.A. under the direction of Master "Chai" Sirisute.
Who is this guy anyway?
Quote:
In 1988, he was nominated for the "Instructor of the Year" by Inside Kung Fu Magazine
Right.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2012 at 10:35 AM..
Also, Bruce Lee did have ground work, and if there was anyone who would have been quick enough to get him to the ground he could face up to the best of them.
That's the key: how would you get him to the ground in the first place? What would stop him from putting his fingers directly into your brain before you could attempt a lunge?
Dan Inosanto gave a really good interview on Bruce's experimentation with grappling.
Jeet Kune Do Grappling: Dan Inosanto Talks About Bruce Lee (http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/mixed-martial-arts-training/boxing/jeet-kune-do-grappling-dan-inosanto-talks-about-bruce-lees-ground-fighting/ - broken link)
Your son's judo instructor? Now it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.
excuse me? i dont know anything because my sons judo instructor was a hand picked combat instructor for the 75th ranger regiment, and sf? because he teaches judo in houston tx now? just a QUICK recap of my sons judo instructor
Quote:
Andrew Connelly is the Judo Master instructor at the School of Hard Knocks. Mr. Connelly began Judo in 1965 at the age of 11, currently he is a 7th degree Black Belt. Master Connelly served in the United States Army, and he was chosen to be a hand to hand combat instructor at the elite Army Ranger Course, as well as a member of the Army All Star Sports Clinic. He has traveled with other outstanding athletics to high schools across America teaching students about the sport of Judo and Army Careers.
because the military does invite "special guest instructors" in to teach effectively a seminar most of these guys CAN and DO claim they "train special forces". look at the gracies and valente brothers, both bjj and self defense instructors (no wing chun, jun fan, jkd, silat or anything else just bjj/gjj) and they claim to instruct americas military and specifically the army rangers and SF. cant argue that, BUT they are not regular instructors, they do seminars periodically at most. just like mr cucci, while he WAS a navy seal, he is NOT a seal instructor. he HAS done some seminars and also has about 5 different programs at his school outside of the SILLY mcdojo stuff your implying.
do i consider jkd to be mcdojo? more often then not these days yes. it is so watered down like most martial arts, and so many places offer it it is terrible. i have been to who knows how many schools with a jkd program and most of them are a joke. just like the CQC they all claim to teach.
i like that last quote you put, especially that bold word.
Quote:
In 1988, he was nominated for the "Instructor of the Year" by Inside Kung Fu Magazine
who knows what they are talking about?
hell my sons judo instructor ranger andrew connelly at least won his nomination for 2011 USJA instructor of the year.
Quote:
This all depends on the person doing the instructing, right? Their bias is going to come out in their teaching. Most artists will dabble in a number of arts, so it's not like that submission technique you learned comes exclusively from one style. The martial arts change just like rap music, or basketball, or dances. People adapt things to work for them. So much of what anybody gets (unless you're doing straight Wing Chun or straight TKD) is a medley of things from across the spectrum. Some instructors will incorporate elements of Krav or even Shotokan. It all depends on what they've been exposed to and what their biases are.
NO! the military does not "dabble" they set guidelines and stick to them, hence a " hand to hand combat program". now if a soldier takes it upon themselves to learn something in addition to, well thats on them but is not part of the program.
here is a nice over view of the army combatives program. show me the wing chun or any of that other stuff.
excuse me? i dont know anything because my sons judo instructor was a hand picked combat instructor for the 75th ranger regiment, and sf? because he teaches judo in houston tx now? just a QUICK recap of my sons judo instructor
That's fine. But the military brought in Fong to revise the army's combat manual to include Wing Chun among other arts. So you were completely wrong about that. And talking to your kid's judo instructor does not mean you know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
because the military does invite "special guest instructors" in to teach effectively a seminar most of these guys CAN and DO claim they "train special forces".
Fong is not a "special guest instructor." He is the source for much of what goes into combat manuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
he HAS done some seminars and also has about 5 different programs at his school outside of the SILLY mcdojo stuff your implying.
So let me get this straight. Dan Inosanto, perhaps the most revered martial arts practitioner in the world today, gives Fong his blessing to teach, and you claim that he's running McDojos?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
do i consider jkd to be mcdojo? more often then not these days yes. it is so watered down like most martial arts, and so many places offer it it is terrible. i have been to who knows how many schools with a jkd program and most of them are a joke. just like the CQC they all claim to teach.
First, JKD is not a "style." That's the irony of it. Bruce hated styles and people went right ahead and turned JKD into a "style." Bruce's teaching was simple: "Do you." If you look at guys like Dan and Fong, they don't do "JKD." They take whatever style strikes their fancy and incorporate the desirable elements (for their purposes) into their own flow. It's the same with basketball. If you see Ginobili doing the "Eurostep," then you might add that to your repertoire. If you see D-Wade doing the windmill crossover, then you might add that to your repertoire as well.
Second, I don't think you have any idea how hard it is to actually receive instruction from Dan or Fong. You just can't walk up to them and say, "Hey, I want to train. Give me a T-shirt now." There are very serious artists who've been trying to train with them for years. And training with them is pretty much a full-time job. Martial arts is their life and they demand nothing less than absolute commitment from their students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
hell my sons judo instructor ranger andrew connelly at least won his nomination for 2011 USJA instructor of the year.
Putting your son's judo instructor in the same sentence with Dan and Fong is like putting a really good D-1 basketball player you saw once in the same sentence with Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant. Just Google Sifu Francis Fong. He's legendary.
NO! the military does not "dabble" they set guidelines and stick to them, hence a " hand to hand combat program". now if a soldier takes it upon themselves to learn something in addition to, well thats on them but is not part of the program.
Now it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. You could have a grappling technique that's a modified form of a jut sau. A manual is not going to tell you the precise origin of the technique. Likewise, you could have a technique that involves a simple cover (like in boxing), a modified tong sau to gain control of the head (from Wing Chun), and then an upward elbow along the clavicle (from Muay Thai). Or a scissor kick (also from Muay Thai). Or a technique may borrow from Sayoc's left-hand template. Or from bil gee. The soldiers are learning from guys (like Dan) who throw everything from Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu to straight up American boxing into their teachings.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2012 at 12:07 PM..
when did the military bring him in? where is the documentation that he was or as you put it is the creater or even a partial creater of the army combatives program. if you watched the video i posted it would show you that the techniques you are talking are NOT part of the program.
i have no issue with dan or mr fongs JKD credentials, if you read the entire post you would have noticed my explanation i will not bother to explain again on the mcdojo subject.
this one is my favorite though
Quote:
Now it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. You could have a grappling technique that's a modified form of a jut sau. A manual is not going to tell you the precise origin of the technique. Likewise, you could have a technique that involves a simple cover (like in boxing), a modified tong sau to gain control of the head (from Wing Chun), and then an upward elbow along the clavicle (from Muay Thai). Or a scissor kick (also from Muay Thai). Or a technique may borrow from Sayoc's left-hand template. Or from bil gee. The soldiers are learning from guys (like Dan) who throw everything from Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu to straight up American boxing into their teachings.
you are obviously NOT from a military back ground so i find it funny that you would try to discredit mine. this is clearly the case as you obviously think you know more about military training then i do.
the military, regardless of branch, task or job DOES NOT give a **** about origins of technique, or how a technique was created or changed, they simply DO. they dont care about who modified what, they simply want a manual or curriculum for the instructors to teach the students from. currently it is the MACP or modern army combatives program which is widely credited to the gracie family for creating based on their techniques. it is set up in levels or ranks. (4 levels for instructors). so once again soldiers currently learn the MACP. this is in their manual/curriculum for hand to hand combat. they will do "seminars" with different instructors (like mr cucci, rener gracie, pedro valente and so on). this doesnt mean these people are military instructors it means they taught some military at some point.
so here it is, we an sit around here and measure dicks and neither of us is going to think the other has any idea (well i know i know whats up HA!)
or we can just agree that JCVD is NEVER fighting an mma match, bruce lee is under rated and yet over rated all at the same time depending on whos talking about what, and my son has the best judo instructor in the country.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
