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Old 11-12-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,565 posts, read 2,442,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
and yet this is a MMA board not a self defense board. i mean why not go post this stuff on the boxing board, it is the same thing.

the other thing is, if this stuff was actually effective in self defense even then there would be one of thse schools on every other corner. why where these types of styles not used in any of the early UFCs where it was not MMA but style vs style to see what styles really worked. every "karate master" who faced ANY OTHER STYLE (ie wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo) got completely owned. in the years i have been training self defense, and martial arts in general, i have seen these guys come and go and throw out challenges, and they all end badly. one of the biggest problems i have with these types of things, the false sense of empowerment and strength. i mean how many styles like these hand out black belts like candy? how many 8 yr olds have blackbelts? my son trains mma and bjj and is 8 years old, he does not have that "im a blackbelt, you cant hurt me" attitude because bjj does not allow that for kids. with the time he has trained he would EASILY be a black belt in these types of martial arts. now for the point......... if an 8 year old kid with a blackbelt where to be attacked by a 30 year old man, the kid would have the self confidence to say "im a blackbelt you better leave me alone" (you get my point i hope). how do you think thats going to end? if that man wants to take that kid there is NOTHING that kid could do about it, black belt or not. i bring this up because i have seen it happen. in san antonio when i was about 18-19-20 years old, a girl with a black belt (about 12 years old) in some form of kung fu or karate or what not, was walking home, and a man pulled over, witnesses said she tried to "defend" herself and he just reached right out, grabbed her and put her in the car. she was eventually found dead in a ditch 2-3 weeks later and the police say she was raped and beaten repeatedly until her death. that little girl lived across the street from my best friend and she was taken on stahl road about 1 mile from her home. (her name was HEIDI SEEMAN)

bottom line, these types of styles do not work, the punch from the hip while stepping forward do not produce power, the "karate chop" does not produce enough power to cause enough significant damage as to cause an attacker to want to stop.

all this said, it doesnt mean bjj or muay thai or boxing or judo or what not are all powerful either. last story for the day....... one of my friends and training partners is hand to hand instructor for the houston police department. i have heard many stories from his times on the street, one is significant considering you bring up a "mugger with no training". he responded to a break in, and showed up on the scene to find a man running out of the house. he chased him, and tackled the guy. the guy was bigger then mike, and ended up getting mike on his back, where mike "pulled guard". he proceeded to punch mike from inside his guard and mike caught the guy in a kimura. the guy continued to "resist" and mike snapped the guys shoulder. now this you would think would have ended it, the guy screamed and swung even harder with his other hand. mike eventually reversed the position and choked him unconscious at which time he handcuffed the guy, and called for an ambulance. this guy was no trained martial artist, he was just a big tough "mugger" type. now had mike tried some of this goofy kata style martial art, he very well would have had 2 choices, get his ass handed to him, or discharge his weapon.

these styles DO NOT WORK and they are NOT even remotely part of the mma world and never have been.
and the truth shall be told

my brother did karate from the time he was a little kid until he was out of high school. I wrestled for 13 years and played football. Not to be too graphic but I could probably rape my brother if I wanted to.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:20 AM
 
7,513 posts, read 11,302,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
now this form of jujutsu you are speaking of now is a more "traditional" style which is not a grappling based style but a stand up style.
So you only consider ground fighting to be grappling? Are you saying there are no stand up grappling styles?
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:36 AM
 
7,513 posts, read 11,302,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
the other thing is, if this stuff was actually effective in self defense even then there would be one of thse schools on every other corner.
Not every style that has effective techniques is going to be on every corner. Some styles may need exposure for them to expand. BJJ is effective but it wasn't until the UFC that it caught on. So why wasn't there BJJ schools on every corner is the 70's and 80's in America? Because it lacked exposure at that those times.




Quote:
why where these types of styles not used in any of the early UFCs where it was not MMA but style vs style to see what styles really worked. every "karate master" who faced ANY OTHER STYLE (ie wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo) got completely owned.
Did any Wado Ryu stylist ever enter the early UFC's? I don't think so. So we will never know how a Wado Ryu stylist would have fared in the early UFC's. With Wado Ryu's use of submissions some of their expert fighters may have done ok against other strikers since we all now know the importance of submission holds.

Well we can all agree that most stand up only stylist didn't do well against grapplers who specialized in ground fighting.

Again be careful judging the effectivness of a style based on how it matches up with today's BJJ/MMA stylist. That's a limited way of determining the effctivness of a style.

Last edited by Motion; 11-12-2011 at 12:01 PM..
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:14 PM
 
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Here's some background on how Wado Ryu developed.



Quote:

Wado Ryu, the way of harmony, is perhaps one of the earliest forms of mixed martial arts. Founded in 1938 by Hironori Ohtsuka, this style of karate combined the effective techniques of the grappling art called jujitsu and the effective striking methods of karate. During the time when the masters took pride in the self-proclaimed superiority of their respective styles or methods, one man sought to combine the “best of the best†of different combat arts in Okinawa and Japan.

Hironori Ohtsuka had spent years learning the subtle footwork and the principles of leverage that were inherent in Yoshin-ryu jujitsu. After mastering the various throws, joint locks, body manipulations, and chokes of jujitsu, Ohtsuka ventured beyond the confines of his grappling system to develop his knowledge about other martial arts. Even if he was already a jujitsu instructor, he still thought it prudent to master other martial techniques that were missing in his own system.


Wado Ryu | Modern Martial Arts
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:14 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
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Is it trained full contact? From what I can tell it doesn't look like it. If an art doesn't train live then frankly it's mostly useless.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:45 PM
 
7,513 posts, read 11,302,814 times
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^

That first video was a demonstration. Not sure of the full extent of their training but the founder of this style actually parted ways with shotokan founder Ginchin Funakoshi partly because he felt that sparring was important while Funakoshi thought that kata was enough.


This is from the link I posted just above:

Quote:
Another distinctive of Ohtsuka’s style of karate is his emphasis on free sparring, or kumite. In other more traditional karate schools, the training focused on forms or kata. Even while he highlighted the principle of non-violence, Ohtsuka also sought to better acquaint his students with the dynamic nature of hand-to-hand combat. Through kumite, he enabled his students to learn footwork and the proper measurement of techniques against a live, moving opponent.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:04 PM
 
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This video puts more focus on Wado Ryu's Ju jitsu techniques.



Wado Ryu Karate Jutsu - YouTube

Last edited by Motion; 11-12-2011 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,857,105 times
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I'm sorry but 90% of those techs are BS. If these guys really trained full contact they wouldn't be teaching BS arm grabbing moves - those techniques were developed so a Samurai who'd lost his weapon had a last ditch effort to try and defend against a sword, but it doesn't work and what use it is in the modern world I don't know. Most of this stuff was pointed out to you in the 'stand up jujitsu styles' thread so I don't know why you're going over the same stuff again.

Most of the throws are basic judo techniques though (just not the arm grabbing ones.)

Last edited by archineer; 11-13-2011 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:59 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,857,105 times
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Have you looked at Daido Juku/Kudo? The space helmets look a bit silly but its 'the real deal' as far as MMA style karate/judo goes.


what is Kudo? (Daido Juku) - YouTube

Last edited by archineer; 11-13-2011 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 11-13-2011, 07:19 PM
 
7,513 posts, read 11,302,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
I'm sorry but 90% of those techs are BS. If these guys really trained full contact they wouldn't be teaching BS arm grabbing moves

Most of the throws are basic judo techniques though (just not the arm grabbing ones.)

Well I wouldn't determine whether or not a technique works by controlled demonstrations. You'd have to see these Wado Ryu stylist apply them in a real fight or competition. Those throws may look different or modified when dealing with a real opponent.

The Ju jitsu style that was combined with Wado Ryu Karate was Yoshin Ryu Ju jitsu. This was one of the main Ju Jitsu styles that Dr. Kano used to developed Judo. So that can explain the similarity to Judo with some of the throws.

Last edited by Motion; 11-13-2011 at 07:52 PM..
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