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There are plenty of examples of vale tudo fights with no rules in which TMA's didn't fare any better than they would under today's rules.
If anything they would do even worse against a modern MMA fighter than they did in the past, even if you took the rules away. Today's MMA fighters are way more advanced than the MMA fighters of the past who still managed to pretty much demolish the TMA practitioners.
Krava Maga is mostly a modern version of the TMA "too deadly to practice full-force" hocus pocus bs.
I'm not sure about all the "too deadly to practice full force" business, but some martial arts simply don't lend themselves well to a scoring environment. Krav Maga focuses on joint/sensitive STRIKES, which just isn't something you can spar with: If it works, the joint breaks. If you do it slowly enough to avoid injury, it's too easy to defend. Joint LOCKS are different because there is a spectrum of force that can be used...a la sparring in jiu-jitsu...if someone puts me in a hold, I can surrender before damage is done. In that environment, the challenge is getting someone IN the lock. To that effect, wrestling/grappling lends itself more easily to competitive and scoring environments than striking, especially striking that is reliant on focal points (krav mage vs. say...tae kwon do)
Regarding modern MMA practioners....well, yeah. In addition to having the benefit of watching years of cross-art training reveal strengths and weaknesses of each, there's a lot of cross training, which will naturally make them more efficient in just about every aspect.
I'm not sure about all the "too deadly to practice full force" business, but some martial arts simply don't lend themselves well to a scoring environment. Krav Maga focuses on joint/sensitive STRIKES, which just isn't something you can spar with: If it works, the joint breaks. If you do it slowly enough to avoid injury, it's too easy to defend. Joint LOCKS are different because there is a spectrum of force that can be used...a la sparring in jiu-jitsu...if someone puts me in a hold, I can surrender before damage is done. In that environment, the challenge is getting someone IN the lock. To that effect, wrestling/grappling lends itself more easily to competitive and scoring environments than striking, especially striking that is reliant on focal points (krav mage vs. say...tae kwon do)
Do you know that disproving the "too dangerous to train full contact" joint manipulations and strikes was the impetus for Kano's development of Judo?
Are you familiar with the old BJJ challenge matches against the "too deadly to train for real" joint locking strikes arts? Guess which art never won those matches.
BTW, most striking joint locks are legal in MMA and all were legal in the old UFC's and vale tudo matches in Brazil and Japan. Once again, you never saw the joint breaking crowd in those having any success.
While there have been a few joint breaks over the years in MMA, they have been very rare and almost accidental. And the people who pulled them off were not TMA practitioners.
And if you want a laugh, watch the few Krav Maga "full-contact" sparring clips that are out there.
Do you know that disproving the "too dangerous to train full contact" joint manipulations and strikes was the impetus for Kano's development of Judo?
Are you familiar with the old BJJ challenge matches against the "too deadly to train for real" joint locking strikes arts? Guess which art never won those matches.
BTW, most striking joint locks are legal in MMA and all were legal in the old UFC's and vale tudo matches in Brazil and Japan. Once again, you never saw the joint breaking crowd in those having any success.
While there have been a few joint breaks over the years in MMA, they have been very rare and almost accidental. And the people who pulled them off were not TMA practitioners.
And if you want a laugh, watch the few Krav Maga "full-contact" sparring clips that are out there.
frank mir has 2 breaks to his credit, as a BJJ black belt, one against a BJJ/MMA legend in big nog.
the original UFCs were set up with some of the second tier practitioners in their respective MA, but none the less, BJJ showed how effective it really was. today its not what it used to be simply for the fact, so many people are training. you never know when youre going to bump into someone with at least SOME training. a typical blue belt is far far more dangerous than a joe blow with TKD or krav.
we used to have a former isreali soldier in our bjj gym. he would tell you 1st hand how ineffective krav really is against a trained opponent.
frank mir has 2 breaks to his credit, as a BJJ black belt, one against a BJJ/MMA legend in big nog.
the original UFCs were set up with some of the second tier practitioners in their respective MA, but none the less, BJJ showed how effective it really was. today its not what it used to be simply for the fact, so many people are training. you never know when youre going to bump into someone with at least SOME training. a typical blue belt is far far more dangerous than a joe blow with TKD or krav.
we used to have a former isreali soldier in our bjj gym. he would tell you 1st hand how ineffective krav really is against a trained opponent.
The UFC went begging for people. They needed to have representatives from many different styles to make it fly as a money-making venture. That was the highest tier they could find at the time. There weren't a lot of people at the time who were willing to enter an almost pure NHB event with no time limits against a slew of different opponents in the same day... and potentially make no money in the process.
But speaking of second tier, you realize Royce was a pretty low level black belt compared to others in his family, as well as many other BJJ black belts out there at the time, right?
And I'm pretty sure Mir's breaks weren't from striking joints, but were from joint locks.
The UFC went begging for people. They needed to have representatives from many different styles to make it fly as a money-making venture. That was the highest tier they could find at the time. There weren't a lot of people at the time who were willing to enter an almost pure NHB event with no time limits against a slew of different opponents in the same day... and potentially make no money in the process.
But speaking of second tier, you realize Royce was a pretty low level black belt compared to others in his family, as well as many other BJJ black belts out there at the time, right?
And I'm pretty sure Mir's breaks weren't from striking joints, but were from joint locks.
take what you can get, agreed.
royce was a solid blackbelt, not "low level" by any means, especially in the context of his style was not point systems like most sport bjj is today.
he wasnt as good as say rickson, and especially not rolls but id take prime royce over rorion, rener,ralek and that lot. royce broke delucas arm pretty well with his mean armbar. but deluca had been actually training with the gracies around that time, he knew better.
mir broke nogs arm with a kimura, and tim sylvias arm with an armbar. though i think the roids weakened tims bones somewhat
royce was a solid blackbelt, not "low level" by any means, especially in the context of his style was not point systems like most sport bjj is today.
he wasnt as good as say rickson, and especially not rolls but id take prime royce over rorion, rener,ralek and that lot. royce broke delucas arm pretty well with his mean armbar. but deluca had been actually training with the gracies around that time, he knew better.
mir broke nogs arm with a kimura, and tim sylvias arm with an armbar. though i think the roids weakened tims bones somewhat
Rickson, Renzo, Royler, Marillo Bustamante, Mario Sperry, the Machado brothers were top tier. They all had much more solid BJJ games than Royce. Most also had much more NHB experience.
Rigan Machado was a monster in his prime. He would have destroyed pretty much everyone in the original ufc's. There is no way Kimo would have thrown him around or taken his back the way he did with Royce.
BTW, the BJJ with a point system hierarchy is how the majority of BJJ has always been trained. Strikes have always been a relatively small portion of the training. Take the points away and you are still doing the same thing- trying to improve your position while looking for a submission.
Last edited by Just A Guy; 10-29-2015 at 04:52 PM..
Rickson, Renzo, Royler, Marillo Bustamante, Mario Sperry, the Machado brothers were top tier. They all had much more solid BJJ games than Royce. Most also had much more NHB experience.
Rigan Machado was a monster in his prime. He would have destroyed pretty much everyone in the original ufc's. There is no way Kimo would have thrown him around or taken his back the way he did with Royce.
BTW, the BJJ with a point system hierarchy is how the majority of BJJ has always been trained. Strikes have always been a relatively small portion of the training. Take the points away and you are still doing the same thing- trying to improve your position while looking for a submission.
Rigan also has/had 50+lbs on royce in his prime sand damn near 100 on him now.
I know Carlos VERY well, and while his teaching skill is far supperior, royce would kill him. royler has solid Bjj, but no size, he wouldn't have faired nearly as well. Marillo and Mario? Why not name Carlson, walid, hell 13 year old vitor.
Point is, royce was not a middle of the road Bjj fighter, he is a top 10 of his time easily.
As for points, the points system we know today was NOTHING like it is now. From early 1990s and earlier, there wasn't any sort of points system really. Helio put a point system into place that actually had more advantages than points.
Gracie grappling cup is the only current tournament that uses almost the exact points helio created.
I talked to relson Gracie a couple of years ago at GGC about all that. He was saying helio went to a mundials once and walked out saying something to the effect of "this is not what I created or wanted for Gracie Jiu Jitsu"
I'm not an helio cult member, don't buy his "I modified blah blah" but relson sure believes it.
Do you know that disproving the "too dangerous to train full contact" joint manipulations and strikes was the impetus for Kano's development of Judo?
Are you familiar with the old BJJ challenge matches against the "too deadly to train for real" joint locking strikes arts? Guess which art never won those matches.
BTW, most striking joint locks are legal in MMA and all were legal in the old UFC's and vale tudo matches in Brazil and Japan. Once again, you never saw the joint breaking crowd in those having any success.
While there have been a few joint breaks over the years in MMA, they have been very rare and almost accidental. And the people who pulled them off were not TMA practitioners.
And if you want a laugh, watch the few Krav Maga "full-contact" sparring clips that are out there.
1) No to the above questions.
2) I'm not sure what you refer to when you say "joint locking strikes arts" and "striking joint locks". In my post, I was referring to those concepts being separate (a joint lock, and striking a particular joint). The former has resistance, and is less likely to accidentally cause damage, thus making it safer and more practical for competition.
Either way, it sounds like you think I'm arguing a point that I'm actually not even making. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you think I'm trying to say that a joint striker would wreck in modern mma. This is not what I am saying.
I'm not arguing the effectiveness of anything vs anything else, but rather suggesting that you simply won't see a lot of certain arts in MMA for many reasons, one of which being that they are impractical for a competitive system.
If I studied a martial art that, say, focused around poking people in the eyes, it wouldn't be practical for competition. I couldn't really practice it very much and even if it worked, few people would want to compete with me, even if they had a solid chance of winning. Because the potential alternative is that they could become injured in a way that would impact their career. In addition, you can't train your eyeballs to "resist" a poke like you can resist other forms of submission. Either it doesn't work, or you're blind. People can argue until they're blue that modern MMA practitioners would wreck me (and they would), but why take the risk? It's not good for the sport or it's practitioners.
Of course, damage still happens using the current system, but the kind of damage we see is generally more easily recovered from and (as mentioned before) involve resistance and are therefore more easily able to avoid permanent or career-affecting injury.
royler has solid Bjj, but no size, he wouldn't have faired nearly as well.
Point is, royce was not a middle of the road Bjj fighter, he is a top 10 of his time easily.
I'm assuming you have a BJJ background. Not sure what belt level you are or how long you have been in the game but...
Did you see them train together back then? Did you roll with Royce and other high level BJJ black belts back then to be able to compare them?
You do know that Royce was choked unconscious by Wallid in just a few minutes once their match hit the mat, correct?
Did you watch his match against Kimo and see the basic mistakes he made when Kimo took his back?
Royce deserves mad respect for being the pioneer he was, but there is no way he was one of the top 10 BJJ black belts.
Last edited by Just A Guy; 10-30-2015 at 10:47 AM..
I'm assuming you have a BJJ background. Not sure what belt level you are or how long you have been in the game but...
Did you see them train together back then? Did you roll with Royce and other high level BJJ black belts back then to be able to compare them?
You do know that Royce was choked unconscious by Wallid in just a few minutes once their match hit the mat, correct?
Did you watch his match against Kimo and see the basic mistakes he made when Kimo took his back?
Royce deserves mad respect for being the pioneer he was, but there is no way he was one of the top 10 BJJ black belts.
To be fair, he said "of his time", not "all" time. There were fewer black belts back then.
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