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Old 08-04-2014, 05:14 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,196,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Karo showed that Judo is devastating in the octagon, I loved watching him throw people around.

-However he also showed that....

Good Wrestling will nullify Judo, as it nullifies most.
the biggest thing about karo is he was always accused of having great judo, and he really DOESNT have that great of judo. hes got OK judo. the only real issue i have with judo now is the silly rules they continue to implement.

i completely agree about judo for self defense. i mean a morote seoi nage on concrete, HOLY CRAP would straight up nearly kill someone.!
this example is taking it easy on UKI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXFUrzBtsrY

or a crazy tai otoshi like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlHEgFVe1_Y
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Denver
9,224 posts, read 15,937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
the biggest thing about karo is he was always accused of having great judo, and he really DOESNT have that great of judo. hes got OK judo. the only real issue i have with judo now is the silly rules they continue to implement.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlHEgFVe1_Y
Karo competed in the Olympic trials... I think his Judo more than OK.
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Old 08-05-2014, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,670,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
I think it is one of the arts I would teach my child for true self-defense. That's how much I believe in it.

I grew up wrestling and had a friend show me some Judo throws, my mind opened up... wow body weight as a weapon... it will knock you out flat on the matt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Karo showed that Judo is devastating in the octagon, I loved watching him throw people around.

-However he also showed that....

Good Wrestling will nullify Judo, as it nullifies most.
In the year that I've study so far.....I'm finding more similarities than I though I would between wrestling and judo. I personally wasn't much of an outside "shooter" when I wrestled. I like working in close and off upperbody moves (snapping the head, using the russian, whizzer grip, etc.) I'm finding my past wrestling style fits in rather well with some judo moves/concepts. Though I fully admit I have a long, long way go to get proficient. Long, looooooooong way to go. Actually I was looking over some old judo books and to my surprise (I honestly didn't know) there were leg techniques included in Judo's curriculum. Basically saw what looked like a double leg and a ankle pick (at least that what I think I saw). Granted these moves are banned now in competition.

As for body weight as a weapon.....oh yeah.......had a couple of hard landing so far and I can vouch for it "effectiveness".

As for wrestling nullifying judo in MMA. From what I've experienced/am seeing I think in general wrestlers have a bit of an advantage because of the typical training regimes/tactics/set ups for attacking and defending both upper and lower body. Of course I'm comparing equal opponents here. But no doubt judo can be use to devastating effect when the player is great.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
the only real issue i have with judo now is the silly rules they continue to implement.
Agreed. Personally my instructor is constantly trying to find ways to stay with in the rules but keep from becoming too stagnant in his teaching of moves. Actually he show a move last week that perked my ears up a bit. Basically it was set up to make your opponent reach (react) up high so you could legally hit a duck under and lift/twistdown (obviously you can't grab the leg to finish). Me thinks it could work...I'm going to try to test it out for the next couple of weeks in randori to see if I can get it to work for me. We'll see.

Quote:
i completely agree about judo for self defense. i mean a morote seoi nage on concrete, HOLY CRAP would straight up nearly kill someone.!
concrete meet back of skull.........goodbye.
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Old 08-05-2014, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Denver
9,224 posts, read 15,937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
In the year that I've study so far.....I'm finding more similarities than I though I would between wrestling and judo. I personally wasn't much of an outside "shooter" when I wrestled. I like working in close and off upperbody moves (snapping the head, using the russian, whizzer grip, etc.) I'm finding my past wrestling style fits in rather well with some judo moves/concepts. Though I fully admit I have a long, long way go to get proficient. Long, looooooooong way to go. Actually I was looking over some old judo books and to my surprise (I honestly didn't know) there were leg techniques included in Judo's curriculum. Basically saw what looked like a double leg and a ankle pick (at least that what I think I saw). Granted these moves are banned now in competition.

Yes but notice how in high level wrestling upper body moves/throws are not used very often. The low center of gravity wrestler attacking the legs of a judo fighter pretty much cancels out the Judo fighter in sport. Pride allowed knees to a downed opponent and soccer kicks to the face so a Judo practitioner would be more on an even field there. In the UFC however...all advantages to the wrestler.

Now on the street Judo will be move even, because the wrestler is less likely to want to get their face stuffed into the pavement or kneed. That will keep the wrestler more upright and prone to throws.
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Old 08-05-2014, 03:19 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,196,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Karo competed in the Olympic trials... I think his Judo more than OK.
ehhhh getting to the olympic TRIALS isnt as tough as it sounds. getting on the olympic team, totally different.

he won 6 jr national titles. my son has 2, and hes not what i would say a TOP judoka just yet.

ive seen kids walk into nationals, jr olympics, scholastics and such and have 3 guys in their division. its a round robin at that point. hell my son took 5th at the national scholastics earlier this year. hes out of the country training with the national team from my wifes home country.

we totally agree on judo as a good self defense MA, but i am not sold on karos judo and especially not on his work ethic lol.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,670,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Yes but notice how in high level wrestling upper body moves/throws are not used very often. The low center of gravity wrestler attacking the legs of a judo fighter pretty much cancels out the Judo fighter in sport. Pride allowed knees to a downed opponent and soccer kicks to the face so a Judo practitioner would be more on an even field there. In the UFC however...all advantages to the wrestler.

Now on the street Judo will be move even, because the wrestler is less likely to want to get their face stuffed into the pavement or kneed. That will keep the wrestler more upright and prone to throws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
As for wrestling nullifying judo in MMA. From what I've experienced/am seeing I think in general wrestlers have a bit of an advantage because of the typical training regimes/tactics/set ups for attacking and defending both upper and lower body. Of course I'm comparing equal opponents here. But no doubt judo can be use to devastating effect when the player is great.
I don't think we have any real disagreement here on the nullification issue. Maybe I was not clear in my post but.....I agree with you on all the points you stated above.

As for the prior post below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
In the year that I've study so far.....I'm finding more similarities than I though I would between wrestling and judo. I personally wasn't much of an outside "shooter" when I wrestled. I like working in close and off upperbody moves (snapping the head, using the russian, whizzer grip, etc.) I'm finding my past wrestling style fits in rather well with some judo moves/concepts. Though I fully admit I have a long, long way go to get proficient. Long, looooooooong way to go. Actually I was looking over some old judo books and to my surprise (I honestly didn't know) there were leg techniques included in Judo's curriculum. Basically saw what looked like a double leg and a ankle pick (at least that what I think I saw). Granted these moves are banned now in competition.
I think in the post above I was trying to relay the fact that when I entered judo I did not expect that any of my wrestling experience would transfer over too judo. I thought I would experience a completely different feel....or foreign feeling. But I can honestly say I really didn't. There is a different feel overall but......not a complete departure from my past experiences.

Let me give an example. About two months ago I learn a "new" throw. When my instructor show me the move I automatically realized it was a modified whizzer throw. Now getting a whizzer throw in wrestling is not high percentage. the whizzer position is more of a way to get a guy off your leg and keep your balance (at least in my experience). But with the Gi and the rules of judo I could make the whizzer throw a fairly high percentage throw....even against some higher level guys. I think that is what I mean when I say I'm finding "similarities" between wrestling and judo. I find that I'm modifying my wrestling experiences to fit my judo training.

Actually. I would say the transfer from wrestling to BJJ in my case was much less. Especially learning the "guard". It was actually hard for me to get myself to psychologically trust the guard position....even though I knew the position could work overall. It was definitely a foreign feeling to be in that position at the beginning of my training in BJJ. Actually I got clock choked alot because when in doubt...I'd scramble and roll to my knees and my opponents would get my back. But now after 16 year in I can say that me and the guard are good with each other.

I hope this is a clarification of what I stated in my other post.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Denver
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I was really just giving an example of why I think Wrestling > Judo in MMA. However, Judo > Wrestling in true self-defense.
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:53 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,196,988 times
Reputation: 1982
i think the cage is a huge issue for judoka. it falls right into the game of wrestlers though. this could be a reason wrestling seems to be more suited to mma. the mat work is far better in judo IMO. wrestlers are very good at dominating position and punching, though many dont know how to punch very well. judoka have the same controls, punches, but they have the natural transition to submissions. BJJ is nothing but JUDO. no mater how hard the helio gracie faithful argue.

judoka IMO have a decided advantage in the open floor, but they are at a disadvantage against the cage where wrestlers clinch, grip, and drag/dump.
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,670,017 times
Reputation: 1698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
I was really just giving an example of why I think Wrestling > Judo in MMA. However, Judo > Wrestling in true self-defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
i think the cage is a huge issue for judoka. it falls right into the game of wrestlers though. this could be a reason wrestling seems to be more suited to mma. the mat work is far better in judo IMO. wrestlers are very good at dominating position and punching, though many dont know how to punch very well. judoka have the same controls, punches, but they have the natural transition to submissions. BJJ is nothing but JUDO. no mater how hard the helio gracie faithful argue.

judoka IMO have a decided advantage in the open floor, but they are at a disadvantage against the cage where wrestlers clinch, grip, and drag/dump.

Just for fun. What are your thoughts on if a high level judo player faced a high level greco/roman wrestler in....

1. A grappling match no gi
2. A grappling match gi
3. A MMA match. Let say striking ablity are equal.
4. A street fight/bar fight.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,224 posts, read 15,937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
Just for fun. What are your thoughts on if a high level judo player faced a high level greco/roman wrestler in....

1. A grappling match no gi
2. A grappling match gi
3. A MMA match. Let say striking ablity are equal.
4. A street fight/bar fight.
Yeah just for fun because this stuff is really sort of silly.

1. Wrestler all day, Judo is all about the Gi and clinching.. "Judo is just wrestling with a gi and subs"
2. Tie - Wrestler needs to avoid the clinch, shoot from far...but 1 stuffed takedown and clinch = wrestler getting thrown like a sack of potatoes.
3. MMA match...
Pride Rules - Judo slight advantage
UFC Rules - Wrestler major advantage

4. Judo advantage, assuming they have a shirt/jacket on. The Wrestler won't be able to shoot effectively because they will break their knees and get a soccer kick to the face. But honestly the wrestler could win without a low shot...think crotch shot.


Grappling match exhibit A

Ricardo RaphaŽl vs #3 Judo guy in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=btkrDUtJDPU

Last edited by Mach50; 08-07-2014 at 10:34 AM..
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