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Old 03-17-2014, 09:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSoul View Post
but Lesnar defeated Couture standing up and he doesn't have much experience in boxing, explain that. that's embarrassing.
Couture was 44 for one thing. For another, he was going up against a guy who could cancel out his primary advantage - both were grapplers. Thus the fight went to stand up, and the younger, bigger, stronger, quicker athlete won that contest. Put Klitsch against Cain and see what happens.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,201,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Couture was 44 for one thing. For another, he was going up against a guy who could cancel out his primary advantage - both were grapplers. Thus the fight went to stand up, and the younger, bigger, stronger, quicker athlete won that contest. Put Klitsch against Cain and see what happens.
people dont realize apparently that randy was 223 lbs, an brock CUT WEIGHT to get to 265 lbs. fight night, brock was easily 285-290 lbs.
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSoul View Post
GSP didn't want to fight Anderson Silva, Anderson Silva didn't want to fight Jon Jones, Mayweather has beaten great fighters, good fighters, he can't fight everybody, the only fighter he didn't fight is Pacquiao but Mayweather is on another level compared to him, already beat Marquez and made him look ordinary but Marquez knocked out Pacquiao. Still waiting to see a great fighter in MMA who remains undefeated for 2 decades like Floyd but nobody has come close. He has mastered his sport. It's time for a fighter from MMA to master his sport.
Floyd defeated fighters who were damaged goods, way past their prime, or smaller and slower. Lately it's only fighters who stand in front of him and slug. The version of Marquez who was drinking his own urine was not the same roided up version of Marquez who caught Manny with a lucky punch as he was on his way to losing himself. Floyd continues to duck Manny, Martinez, and hasn't even mentioned Garcia, Bradley, or Alexander. He recently pretended he wanted to fight Khan but found a way to jerk him and th fans around and take on a slower more one dimensional Maidana. Is this the guy you're looking for in MMA?
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:08 PM
 
596 posts, read 816,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I'd take an extremely skilled BJJ guy over an extremely skilled boxer in a fight - unless there are rules require that the fighters remain standing. Royce Gracie and Randy Couture have demonstrated what happens when a boxer is forced to think about guarding against a take-down. A skilled striker could beat a grappler if he spent a considerable amount of time working with MMA trainers on take-down defense, but not if he just walks in and expects to win without any rounded training. I wouldn't even take a kickboxer in that situation, though he'd have a better chance.

I'm certainly not "extremely skilled" in BJJ, but I did train it for 3+ years and we spent very little time on closing the distance and even on take downs for that matter. More often than not we would start on our knees when we would roll. Now if you're talking about a BJJ expert who also has good wrestling and/or judo skills then that would be a different story. The reason that wrestling is the best base for mma is because the better wrestler will dictate the phase of the fight (standing, ground, or clinch).
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Old 03-18-2014, 02:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I'd take an extremely skilled BJJ guy over an extremely skilled boxer in a fight - unless there are rules require that the fighters remain standing. Royce Gracie and Randy Couture have demonstrated what happens when a boxer is forced to think about guarding against a take-down. A skilled striker could beat a grappler if he spent a considerable amount of time working with MMA trainers on take-down defense, but not if he just walks in and expects to win without any rounded training. I wouldn't even take a kickboxer in that situation, though he'd have a better chance.

Royce Gracie and Rand Couture are both well trained in standup fighting and able to take shots to the face, due to their training. That dummy Tonney, walked in there thinking he didn't need any grappling.

The Gracies have been fighting Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years, so they're not pure grapplers. BJJ does have standup striking. You don't see it much is because MMA gyms mostly teaches Sport BJJ as they have MT for the standup, so they split the classes.

But in general, I would agree with you. It's higher probability that a pure standup fighter will get taken down before he's able to KO or hurt the pure grappler in a fight.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:37 PM
 
Location: spring tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Royce Gracie and Rand Couture are both well trained in standup fighting and able to take shots to the face, due to their training. That dummy Tonney, walked in there thinking he didn't need any grappling.

The Gracies have been fighting Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years, so they're not pure grapplers. BJJ does have standup striking. You don't see it much is because MMA gyms mostly teaches Sport BJJ as they have MT for the standup, so they split the classes.

But in general, I would agree with you. It's higher probability that a pure standup fighter will get taken down before he's able to KO or hurt the pure grappler in a fight.
ok so randy was a boxer in the army, everyone in the army in his day boxed. he was a much better wrestler, and him trying to stand with someone has ALWAYS been his downfall. (see chuck liddell if you need examples)
royce on the other hand had NEVER formally trained stand up until his fight with matt hughes, when he went to the fairtex camp in california. the gracies, and especially the helio gracie lineage are firm believers that you learn everything you need to know in gracie jiu jitsu. it is literally cultish in their beliefs.

in addition, the term vale tudo is the nickname of the sideshow fights at local circuses in brazil until the late 50s/early 60s when they were televised on "ring of heros" i believe was the name of the tv show).
in addition, contrary to popular belief helio gracie didnt have a very good record in challenge matches. out of his 19 fights, at least half ended in draws, he had at least 3 losses also.
carlson gracie IMO was the greatest of that older generation, and very few from the helio line (the popularized gracies) have shared a lot of success, with rickson being the obvious exception. the carlson gracie lines/teams have had MUCH more success, including one of my favorite matches ever between walid and royce, with royce going to sleep.

these days everyone is training jiu jitsu, and most have forgotten about judo. wrestlers have taken over mma. submission defense is very easy for a wrestler to learn compared to submission offense. take a wrestler and teach him how to NOT get submitted and he is a very tough guy to fight. same got for stand up, teach a wrestler how to NOT get KOed and its a tough fight for the stand up guy. see defense is the easiest path, so take a guy with strong wrestling, and tech him to defend and youve got a great chance at a tough fighter to beat.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:47 PM
 
296 posts, read 324,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
royce on the other hand had NEVER formally trained stand up until his fight with matt hughes, when he went to the fairtex camp in california. the gracies, and especially the helio gracie lineage are firm believers that you learn everything you need to know in gracie jiu jitsu. it is literally cultish in their beliefs.
No, there's standup in BJJ. BJJ comes from Judo, which is essentially modified for sports Jujutsu. Standup striking always existed and trained in Jujutsu. Even the Gracies today attest to this. They call it Self Defense in Brazil to not detract from their cashcow being BJJ. The Gracie have always trained standup striking, just that they aren't very good at it as it's not their game. Obviously Royce Gracie went to Fairtex to get better for that major fight with Hughes.

What was taught by Maeda to the Gracies would include standup striking as Maeda was a prize fighter who traveled the world to promote Kano's Judo. His main game would be grappling, but he still had to weather the storm of standup strikes first, as the bare knuckle fights started standing and mostly favored standing fighters back up. Judo is merely Jujutsu with some modifications at such infancy stage, therefore Maeda was more of a Jujutsuka, as was Kano...who even called his derivative of Jujutsu....."Kano's Jujutsu" which he later renamed, Judo. The Gracies modified Jujustsu taught to them by Maeda even more by focusing mostly on getting the fight to the ground, but still had to address the standup striking at the start of the fight. Royce Gracie displayed such standup striking in his UFC fights.

Quote:
in addition, the term vale tudo is the nickname of the sideshow fights at local circuses in brazil until the late 50s/early 60s when they were televised on "ring of heros" i believe was the name of the tv show).
in addition, contrary to popular belief helio gracie didnt have a very good record in challenge matches. out of his 19 fights, at least half ended in draws, he had at least 3 losses also.
carlson gracie IMO was the greatest of that older generation, and very few from the helio line (the popularized gracies) have shared a lot of success, with rickson being the obvious exception. the carlson gracie lines/teams have had MUCH more success, including one of my favorite matches ever between walid and royce, with royce going to sleep.
I never said anything about Helio's record being winning or losing, just that he fought No Rules fight, which included him striking standup...just very little and crappy compared to a good standup striker. But standup striking always existed in BJJ. The main reason it's rarely, if ever taught in BJJ class is because most BJJ/MMA gyms have a separate striking class. And a lot of pure BJJ people are scared to get hit in the face and just want to grapple only.
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:21 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,201,268 times
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So 1st you stated that Royce was a "trained striker", this is pure loaded bs. Yes Gracie jj had strikes, BUT it is/was very little, and had no base in real striking. Being taught to throw isn't what is/was taught but more striking defense. They have never been taugh how to stand and strike, but more throw a "Gracie stomp" and cover enough to get inside for a clinch and get it to the ground.

Now if you want to call what helio Gracie and his brother taught as striking, then I suggest getting some Muay Thai/boxing videos so you can see the difference. As a mater of fact, helio was a huge proponent of NOT STRIKING. He didn't want striking as it is to "brutal" and he said the point of GJJ is not to injure your opponent but to subdue him with minimal effort and damage. This is why you rarely see his kids throwing anything more than some open palm "slaps", enough to get their opponent to turn around and give up their back/neck.

Helio was also not a fan of joint locks, he preferred strangles for 2 reasons. 1 a man can continue to fight with a broken arm/shoulder but not when sleeping. 2 joint locks can do permanent damage and that is the opposite of the point of Jiu jitsu.

As for DR Kano using strikes or incorporating them into kodokan judo, this is also not the case. Striking is some of the least useful techniques he eliminated in the creation of judo. Of course newaza was also slowly taken out. Oh sure judoka still practice newaza, but not like it was in the beginning. Kosen judo players were known as great grapplers, and their "pulling in" or pulling guard was quickly outlawed. Their newaza was bjj/GJJ well before maeda, met gastao Gracie.
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:36 PM
 
296 posts, read 324,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
So 1st you stated that Royce was a "trained striker", this is pure loaded bs. Yes Gracie jj had strikes, BUT it is/was very little, and had no base in real striking. Being taught to throw isn't what is/was taught but more striking defense. They have never been taugh how to stand and strike, but more throw a "Gracie stomp" and cover enough to get inside for a clinch and get it to the ground.
What part about how there's striking in Jiu-Jitsu do you not understand? You just narrow view that good striking is only what's currently demonstrated in the UFC using Muay Thai and Boxing. But striking is still striking in Karate, Kung-Fu and there's striking in Jiu-Jitsu.

And you need to learn how to read what I said in context. What I said about Gracie and Couture being trained strikers was during Gracie's fight vs. Hughes and Coutoure vs. Tonney. Obviously they both trained much more striking up to that point. Obviously any kind of training would improve his striking since his early UFC 1-4 days.

Quote:
Now if you want to call what helio Gracie and his brother taught as striking, then I suggest getting some Muay Thai/boxing videos so you can see the difference. As a mater of fact, helio was a huge proponent of NOT STRIKING. He didn't want striking as it is to "brutal" and he said the point of GJJ is not to injure your opponent but to subdue him with minimal effort and damage. This is why you rarely see his kids throwing anything more than some open palm "slaps", enough to get their opponent to turn around and give up their back/neck.
Once again, your problem is your narrow view of how striking should only be. There's striking in JJ, whether you like it or not. You obviously don't know about it. And a slap to the ear does pretty close damage to a closed fist in the guard position.

Quote:
Helio was also not a fan of joint locks, he preferred strangles for 2 reasons. 1 a man can continue to fight with a broken arm/shoulder but not when sleeping. 2 joint locks can do permanent damage and that is the opposite of the point of Jiu jitsu.
There's joint locks in Jujutsu. There's little joint locks in Sports BJJ, but the Brazilians teaches the full realm of Jujutsu under label of Self Defense. Helio is probably talking about how he prefers to fight, not that there's no joint locks in JJ.

Quote:
As for DR Kano using strikes or incorporating them into kodokan judo, this is also not the case. Striking is some of the least useful techniques he eliminated in the creation of judo. Of course newaza was also slowly taken out. Oh sure judoka still practice newaza, but not like it was in the beginning. Kosen judo players were known as great grapplers, and their "pulling in" or pulling guard was quickly outlawed. Their newaza was bjj/GJJ well before maeda, met gastao Gracie.
Once again, you seem to not understand that Japanese Jujutsu taught striking and small joint locks. Kano turned his version into a sport, and eliminated the small joint locks and strikes. But Maeda fought bare knuckles. Maeda was already trained in Jujutsu, as this was the mains style of the Japanese. Why wouldn't he strike when his opponents are trying to KO him?

Last edited by LSone; 03-20-2014 at 08:46 PM..
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:21 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,201,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Royce Gracie and Rand Couture are both well trained in standup fighting and able to take shots to the face, due to their training. That dummy Tonney, walked in there thinking he didn't need any grappling.

The Gracies have been fighting Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years, so they're not pure grapplers. BJJ does have standup striking. You don't see it much is because MMA gyms mostly teaches Sport BJJ as they have MT for the standup, so they split the classes.

But in general, I would agree with you. It's higher probability that a pure standup fighter will get taken down before he's able to KO or hurt the pure grappler in a fight.
ummmm nope you speak nothing on royce vs hughes UNTIL AFTER i brought up hughes and how royce went to fairtex to train for that fight. maybe you should go back and re-read what you write before commenting further. furthermore, you specifically say they are both "well trained strikers" thus implying that they are both highly skilled. this is pure BS. royce is a TERRIBLE striker, and randy is SO-SO at best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
What part about how there's striking in Jiu-Jitsu do you not understand? You just narrow view that good striking is only what's currently demonstrated in the UFC using Muay Thai and Boxing. But striking is still striking in Karate, Kung-Fu and there's striking in Jiu-Jitsu.

And you need to learn how to read what I said in context. What I said about Gracie and Couture being trained strikers was during Gracie's fight vs. Hughes and Coutoure vs. Tonney. Obviously they both trained much more striking up to that point. Obviously any kind of training would improve his striking since his early UFC 1-4 days.

Once again, your problem is your narrow view of how striking should only be. There's striking in JJ, whether you like it or not. You obviously don't know about it. And a slap to the ear does pretty close damage to a closed fist in the guard position.

There's joint locks in Jujutsu. There's little joint locks in Sports BJJ, but the Brazilians teaches the full realm of Jujutsu under label of Self Defense. Helio is probably talking about how he prefers to fight, not that there's no joint locks in JJ.

Once again, you seem to not understand that Japanese Jujutsu taught striking and small joint locks. Kano turned his version into a sport, and eliminated the small joint locks and strikes. But Maeda fought bare knuckles. Maeda was already trained in Jujutsu, as this was the mains style of the Japanese. Why wouldn't he strike when his opponents are trying to KO him?
now im not going to nitpick everything you say, i will just preface that i have studied the gracies very closely, i know several of them personally. ive been around this game since the 1990's. ive also been around the other lineage of gracies (the non helio gracie line) so ive gotten a pure perspective of several sides/view points from "the source".

now is there striking in gjj? sure. there is about a proficient striking in GJJ/BJJ as two middle school kids fighting on the school yard. the striking in gjj is silly, has no power, and is actually pretty bad form.

as for joint locks, maybe you should learn some reading comprehension, i never said their were no joint locks, i said helio gracie (as well as his lineage) prefer NOT to use them as it is a higher probability of permanent/severe injury to your opponent. they prefer strangles and chokes (you do know the difference right?) as an unconscious opponent ends the fight no mater how big and strong he is.

as for small joint manipulation, finger locks are ineffective, yeah they hurt, but youre not stopping anyone from attacking you. wrists are weak, and very painful, but again not stopping anyone from attacking you. throwing foot/ankle locks out in a self defense is going to get you killed.

as for maeda fighting bare knuckles, yeah he sure did, gloves were not worn often as they were to expensive for common people and only PRO fighters had them.
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