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Old 07-31-2018, 06:39 AM
Status: "Beach time!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
10,674 posts, read 11,083,182 times
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At the judo dojo where I train the techniques and instruction are focused on competition judo. This is important because it teaches how to perfect the fundamentals, and this is an important baseline. We do periodically have instruction that focusses on how the techniques translate into self defense, with an emphasis on awareness that the conditions will not be what we're used to seeing in competition. Specifically there is no mat to land on safely, and your assailant will not be wearing a gi, may have multiple assailants, and there may be weapons involved. With this in mind, most self defense techniques taught, especially to the young ladies in the class, focus on buying enough time to remove themselves from a dangerous situation.


Another emphasis is on avoiding submissions in self defense. This is because in the time it takes to submit an assailant he may have a buddy coming off the top rope and it'll be lights out. Best bet: if an assailant gets into a gripping fight, there are a couple throws that are relatively easy to do without the gi and that would be devastating to an assailant. As soon as he's neutralized, GTFO of there and notify authorities.


Another aspect to consider is augmenting traditional judo techniques with other strikes and blows if the situation dictates. I'm in the Marine Corps, and our in-house martial arts program does a decent job of this. Now our martial arts are not for competition and there is some deserved skepticism about a black belt in our program and the knowledge and skills as opposed to a judo black belt with at least 10 or so years of experience. With that said, the Marine Corps incorporates a lot of judo techniques into the standing-to-ground portion of its program, with some tweaks. In judo you're not trying to hurt anyone. In the Marine Corps program you kind of are. I can do a decent osoto gari in judo. Because I've done judo and practiced that throw as much as I have, if I have to execute it in self defense, and knowing the tweaks I've learned in the Marine Corps, it would literally be a life changing experience for the assailant.


As for criminal prosecution, it's a shame we even have to go there. In a self defense situation the assailant has no rights. His choice has rendered him outside the protection of the law. Pull a knife on someone and if they have a gun and send you off into eternity...well you shouldn't have pulled a knife on them. Try to mug someone in the movie theater parking lot late and night and they know how to use judo or some other martial art in self defense and they put you on the pavement in such a way it leaves you with TBI...too bad. When it come to self defense the risk of prosecution or a civil lawsuit is furthest from my mind. A person has a fundamental right to self defense and should be able to do so without fear of legal ramifications.
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Old 07-31-2018, 09:58 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,038 posts, read 936,220 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Listen I am no expert AT ALL, have not been in any fights, and am super new to martial arts training. We're just a couple of dudes here on the internet speculating. But isn't that what what us internet posters do best?
I was not speculating, I was pointing out a problem with your post based on what I have experienced where self defence would have been useful.

You was only part correct when said you should know some grappling. My point was that you can not rely only on it (and you need to be good).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a bunch of street fight videos online where people with boxing skills just wreck people. Not sure whether that would be my #1 choice though if we're talking about a single art for self defense.
Because boxing is one of the better arts to learn, and it is easier to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
If I'm being purely objective, I think judo might be better for self-defense because it prepares you better for a worst-case scenario (i.e., someone bigger, stronger, and more aggressive attacks you - the person who's more likely to get in close). The thing with boxing is you have a bladed stance, which renders you vulnerable to getting tackled.
The thing with Judo is you may be punched. Swings and roundabouts I think the English say. Going back to my experience, the fights that ended quickly were the ones with fists, with one person ending on the floor, and sometimes needing hospital treatment. They never got to the grappling stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
However, if I had to pick between Judo and boxing for myself to train I'd probably pick boxing because it seems more fun. I also imagine you get more usable skills after 6 months of training it than you would Judo (I could be wrong though).
This I agree with. I have nothing against Judo, it trains discipline, coordination, and increases health. And as demonstrated above, it can be used in self defence. I am just pointing out the problems as I see them from my experience.

But good luck in what ever path you take, and I hope you never have to use any skills you learn.
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Old 07-31-2018, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,148 posts, read 1,614,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
However, if I had to pick between Judo and boxing for myself to train I'd probably pick boxing because it seems more fun. I also imagine you get more usable skills after 6 months of training it than you would Judo (I could be wrong though).
Your choice of fun might be different than mine, but I found wrestling (against live partner) to be much more fun than hitting heavy punching bag over and over (as well as being hit in a sparring boxing match is definitely less fun (more damaging to your body and brain) than being wrestled down (which is not fun, but without much damage you can repeat it over and over and get better each time) ).
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Old 07-31-2018, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,696 posts, read 986,928 times
Reputation: 1908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I was not speculating, I was pointing out a problem with your post based on what I have experienced where self defence would have been useful.

You was only part correct when said you should know some grappling. My point was that you can not rely only on it (and you need to be good).



Because boxing is one of the better arts to learn, and it is easier to learn.



The thing with Judo is you may be punched. Swings and roundabouts I think the English say. Going back to my experience, the fights that ended quickly were the ones with fists, with one person ending on the floor, and sometimes needing hospital treatment. They never got to the grappling stage.



This I agree with. I have nothing against Judo, it trains discipline, coordination, and increases health. And as demonstrated above, it can be used in self defence. I am just pointing out the problems as I see them from my experience.

But good luck in what ever path you take, and I hope you never have to use any skills you learn.
My path already started, but thanks for the best wishes. I train at an MMA gym, but the emphasis is on grappling (bjj/wrestling/judo) as your base, and you learn striking once you've achieved a certain level of proficiency. However, we train to defend against strikes from the beginning, as everything is MMA/street self-defense focused. So that's my bias. However, there's no "correct" or "incorrect" in comparing our posts. You're trying to say that boxing + running away = best for self defense. I'm presenting the counter.

If we're going to say best for self defense I'd say learn MMA but up to the person on whether they want to focus on striking or grappling first. You're speaking purely from what you've observed in fights between random people in your dad's restaurant or whatever. I can't speak to what you saw, but believe me it's pretty easy to get within grappling range against an untrained foe, and very easy if you're attacked by someone larger and stronger. (In fact, if you watch street fight videos on youtube, most of the fights i've seen end up in grappling range where the people don't know what they're doing). I think what's nice about something like boxing is that it teaches distance management. But it's also true that if all you learn is boxing, the stance you take renders you vulnerable to getting tackled.

In terms of a single art being better for self defense, I'm more inclined to lean Judo provided it's not at a school that's focused on sport over self defense. Grappling isn't just submitting people on the ground - there are standing submissions, you can throw (as in Judo), effectively using the person's energy against them, and most importantly you can escape effectively if caught in a compromising position. Grappling is what will keep you off the floor.

If you're 5'9" 170, and are attacked by someone who is 6'3" 225, you will likely be better served to have grappling skills IMO than boxing, unless you're very experienced/skilled.

Last edited by Valhallian; 07-31-2018 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:46 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,038 posts, read 936,220 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
You're trying to say that boxing + running away = best for self defense. I'm presenting the counter.
I did not say that. I said best is what works, so a boxing 1, 2 and running away is in that group. If it works. In a crowded bar, running away is not an option.

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Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
You're speaking purely from what you've observed in fights between random people in your dad's restaurant or whatever.
And Wing chun.
And boxing.
And Eskrima.

Plus I have had the experience of the fights I have seen. Youtube videos have the problem of selective bias, you choose what you want to see. Experience tells me how fights usually end up.

But it is limited experience, and I may be wrong, so you could always ask a door man of a bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
But it's also true that if all you learn is boxing, the stance you take renders you vulnerable to getting tackled.
Is this not the case with any stance? Do not forget boxers move around a lot. And if my experience is correct, most tackles are done by people who do not know how to fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Grappling is what will keep you off the floor.
Or take you there.

Learn your art and see what works for you. For me, striking is the quickest.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Scottsdale
1,130 posts, read 554,305 times
Reputation: 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by miticoman View Post
In case of aggression or street struggle can judo techniques are really effective since the two parts are without judogi.
Any opinion?
Judo would work great on someone without any background in fighting. The random wife beater without any high schools sports experience could easily be subdued by a cop or brother-in-law or father-in-law who knows basic judo. The choke hold can take them out easily. One former LAPD cop noted that the infamous Rodney King beating could have been prevented if choke holds had still been allowed. Choke holds had been effective in the 80s for ending domestic violence by LAPD. It got banned by the early 1990s which was when the King incident happened. The guillotine choke definitely is effective in self-dense to some degree.

Where judo gets limited is in striking. If the perpetrator is good at striking like boxing or karate, then judo experts run the risk of a counter strike when going in for a takedown or hip throw. This means judo could still work but at the expense of having a broken nose or swollen eye the next morning. Or worse, the striker could be good enough to completely neutralize the judo. A really good striker who is moderate or poor at judo could still win if the striker has a takedown defense against judo. But still, there are online videos of Brazilian Judo experts quickly subduing karate experts of the nth degree black belt - the supposed grand master.

So, in general, a combination of judo and mauy thai or some other striking ability would be best - karate and judo or just plain kick boxing and judo. Some of the best MMA guys like Shogun knew both judo and mauy thai which adds the knee and elbow as striking tools along with standard fists and kicks.
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,696 posts, read 986,928 times
Reputation: 1908
Quote:
Originally Posted by grad_student200 View Post
Judo would work great on someone without any background in fighting. The random wife beater without any high schools sports experience could easily be subdued by a cop or brother-in-law or father-in-law who knows basic judo. The choke hold can take them out easily. One former LAPD cop noted that the infamous Rodney King beating could have been prevented if choke holds had still been allowed. Choke holds had been effective in the 80s for ending domestic violence by LAPD. It got banned by the early 1990s which was when the King incident happened. The guillotine choke definitely is effective in self-dense to some degree.

Where judo gets limited is in striking. If the perpetrator is good at striking like boxing or karate, then judo experts run the risk of a counter strike when going in for a takedown or hip throw. This means judo could still work but at the expense of having a broken nose or swollen eye the next morning. Or worse, the striker could be good enough to completely neutralize the judo. A really good striker who is moderate or poor at judo could still win if the striker has a takedown defense against judo. But still, there are online videos of Brazilian Judo experts quickly subduing karate experts of the nth degree black belt - the supposed grand master.

So, in general, a combination of judo and mauy thai or some other striking ability would be best - karate and judo or just plain kick boxing and judo. Some of the best MMA guys like Shogun knew both judo and mauy thai which adds the knee and elbow as striking tools along with standard fists and kicks.
Yeah, I've re-thought this a bit. Grappling (judo/wrestling/BJJ) is probably not going to be as useful as striking (boxing, muay thai, etc.) in situations with multiple attackers for example. But I think for one-on-one grappling is better where you're dealing with someone with a size/strength advantage.

This is all of course assuming zero training in the assailant. Given the variety of different self-defense scenarios, the best solution IMO is to cross-train, with a little bit of specific practice for self-defense situations (verbal de-escalation, weapons, etc.).
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:51 PM
 
Location: DC
54 posts, read 16,363 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by miticoman View Post
are judo moves really effective since the two parts are without judogi.
Any opinion?
There was a fun short video circling YouTube a couple of years ago -
https://youtu.be/WD9rIpDQPOk
It seems to demonstrate that judogi, imprtant as it is, is not too critical.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,696 posts, read 986,928 times
Reputation: 1908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I did not say that. I said best is what works, so a boxing 1, 2 and running away is in that group. If it works. In a crowded bar, running away is not an option.



And Wing chun.
And boxing.
And Eskrima.

Plus I have had the experience of the fights I have seen. Youtube videos have the problem of selective bias, you choose what you want to see. Experience tells me how fights usually end up.

But it is limited experience, and I may be wrong, so you could always ask a door man of a bar.



Is this not the case with any stance? Do not forget boxers move around a lot. And if my experience is correct, most tackles are done by people who do not know how to fight.



Or take you there.

Learn your art and see what works for you. For me, striking is the quickest.
All fair points, when it comes down to it, I think situational awareness is key. Tbh I don't see myself ever using jiu jitsu in a street fight (or getting into one at all in the first place). In most situations (like in a crowded bar) I think you'd want to use striking. However, if I got approached by some random crazy dude on the sidewalk or at a store I would be more likely to (try to) use grappling.
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