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Old 08-26-2018, 12:34 AM
 
295 posts, read 323,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
It's interesting, I just had a conversation with my MMA coach about this. When I was researching boxing and other combat sports gyms in NYC to join, I noticed that I came away with a different impression of so-called "old school boxing gyms" than I did from the other arts. Essentially, the impression I got was that for the most part you come in and train on your own, and maybe you can work with a trainer if you're willing to pay for private sessions. The culture of BJJ on the other hand seems very different. BJJ was designed to help even those who don't have innate natural athletic ability to fight technically against those who are more physically dominant (whether in the form of athleticism or size). It's very welcoming and everybody sucks in the beginning. Even with MMA gyms in general, the model they seem to be based around is one of instruction that caters to people of all skill levels.

My coach told me it's because boxing has traditionally had the "prize fighter mentality." Essentially, it means the trainers will only work with you if they see that you have natural talent. Because the coaches want to work with the people who will make them money. To me, this sounds about right. I trust my coach's opinion on this, as he's dedicated his life to martial arts and has such a passion for the history of combat sports.

So, I'm not so sure that it's due to some school of hard knocks, no-nonsense mentality like you're describing that coaches at boxing gyms may just throw you in there. It could also be that boxing gyms generally only want to put time and energy into developing natural athletes who they know will be good.



Old School Boxing Gym Dues: $30-50/month unlimited use, mostly working on your own on the bags, machines, get motivation, maybe get some sparring and some help with techniques. You have to pay extra for a trainer's time. If they see that you have potential, then this fee can be less to free, in return, the trainer gets $$$ on the back end, glory, etc.



New School Boxing, MMA/BJJ Gym Dues: $130-175/month for 3 classes (60-90 minutes) per week with a 1 year contract. More if it's month to month. And as high as $250-290 /unlimited classes. They will coddle the newbies more and with much more patient as they're charging quite a bit more than the old school gyms. Letting noobs spar = they gonna quit = loss of that sweet *** $130-290/month per student loss.



$130-175/month w/no contract can get you a really nice gym membership with indoor pool, basketball court, towel service, and all sorts of other stuff....LA Fitness Deluxe Clubs have this for like only $60/mo. $250-290 are where celebs, politicians and rich people workout. Of course you don't get fight training, but I'm just giving you an interesting comparison as to how much BJJ charges and many BJJ gyms are just a 2000-3000 sq/ft converted warehouse with mats, 2 bathrooms, no shower, no lockers, horrible parking, etc.


Quote:
Throwing someone in right away who sucks will demoralize that person and as a result weed them out. I don't think they're necessarily looking for "heart," but rather, talent.
It's all of the above with some additions. Sometimes they'd throw them in, hoping to get rid of them. But there are also weird/funny instances where the coaches makes these Noobs do stupid exercises like running around the ring, for weeks and weeks until they get pissed off (understandably) and complain....and get thrown in with a Fighter to get KTFO. This really does happen. Dana White talks about his own exact experience at 2:55 mark...and he was only paying $8 dues (probably /week = $32/mo. in the 1990's probably).




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K3EiRMB-t8




Quote:
I think you're right on this for the reasons I noted above, but I also think boxus is right. These gyms are likely poor options for the average person that actually wants to learn to box.
It depends. Can this average person afford $130-175/month or $30/month. I took the $150/mo. route b/c I didn't want to get ****ed up like this.... dudes I know told me how their experiences were in such Boxing gyms from the 'hood. All like this and they are good fighters too.....but took their lumps. They said they learned how to fight real fast....but all 3 of them now only do BJJ because they easily get head concussions.



But I also get such easy head concussions too from 10+ years of training & amateur fights. Just have to know when to quit and rest for a while = my key.
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,695 posts, read 985,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Old School Boxing Gym Dues: $30-50/month unlimited use, mostly working on your own on the bags, machines, get motivation, maybe get some sparring and some help with techniques. You have to pay extra for a trainer's time. If they see that you have potential, then this fee can be less to free, in return, the trainer gets $$$ on the back end, glory, etc.



New School Boxing, MMA/BJJ Gym Dues: $130-175/month for 3 classes (60-90 minutes) per week with a 1 year contract. More if it's month to month. And as high as $250-290 /unlimited classes. They will coddle the newbies more and with much more patient as they're charging quite a bit more than the old school gyms. Letting noobs spar = they gonna quit = loss of that sweet *** $130-290/month per student loss.



$130-175/month w/no contract can get you a really nice gym membership with indoor pool, basketball court, towel service, and all sorts of other stuff....LA Fitness Deluxe Clubs have this for like only $60/mo. $250-290 are where celebs, politicians and rich people workout. Of course you don't get fight training, but I'm just giving you an interesting comparison as to how much BJJ charges and many BJJ gyms are just a 2000-3000 sq/ft converted warehouse with mats, 2 bathrooms, no shower, no lockers, horrible parking, etc.


It's all of the above with some additions. Sometimes they'd throw them in, hoping to get rid of them. But there are also weird/funny instances where the coaches makes these Noobs do stupid exercises like running around the ring, for weeks and weeks until they get pissed off (understandably) and complain....and get thrown in with a Fighter to get KTFO. This really does happen. Dana White talks about his own exact experience at 2:55 mark...and he was only paying $8 dues (probably /week = $32/mo. in the 1990's probably).




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K3EiRMB-t8





It depends. Can this average person afford $130-175/month or $30/month. I took the $150/mo. route b/c I didn't want to get ****ed up like this.... dudes I know told me how their experiences were in such Boxing gyms from the 'hood. All like this and they are good fighters too.....but took their lumps. They said they learned how to fight real fast....but all 3 of them now only do BJJ because they easily get head concussions.



But I also get such easy head concussions too from 10+ years of training & amateur fights. Just have to know when to quit and rest for a while = my key.
I guess it depends on what city you're in. There's no boxing gym in NYC where you can pay $30/mo, none that I know of at least. Usually $100 minimum if you want a basic membership where you come in and have access to the gym. But no training included. That's even for the "old school"gyms like Gleason's and Mendez.

Church Street Boxing is the only one I know where you can actually take classes, and that membership is $170/mo, but you have unlimited classes, and have access to train Muay Thai as well some BJJ. For no-classes but gym access you pay $110.

The MMA gym I go to is $200/mo, but I think $200-250 seems to be about the range for MMA gyms around here, and pure BJJ as well too. I'm sure you have to pay out the ass to train at Renzo Gracie's gym.

I can't speak for other MMA gyms, but the experience at my mine is that you spar from the beginning. Our philosophy is that you're not really learning to fight if you're never fighting. So I object to the notion that MMA gyms necessarily "coddle" the students, especially given that the atmosphere where I train is rather intense. I don't think teaching necessarily equates to coddling. I think the difference in teaching style is due to the cultural difference. MMA gyms are often teaching students to either 1) compete in MMA and/or 2) learn to defend themselves. Boxing on the other hand, was always meant to be for entertainment, for sport. So, as you were saying yourself above, a trainer won't waste time on someone without natural talent, because they want to train people who will make them money.

If you're average joe schmo who wants to learn to defend yourself against punches and whatever else someone may throw at you, it makes far more sense to me to just shell out for an MMA gym membership rather than waste $30-$50/mo at a gym where you may or may not ever actually learn to box, and at best will get thrown into spar occasionally.
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Old 08-26-2018, 11:40 PM
 
295 posts, read 323,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
I guess it depends on what city you're in. There's no boxing gym in NYC where you can pay $30/mo, none that I know of at least. Usually $100 minimum if you want a basic membership where you come in and have access to the gym. But no training included. That's even for the "old school"gyms like Gleason's and Mendez.

Well yeah, that's because it's NYC. You ain't getting it for $50/month, so no way is it $30...I think $30 was like 20 years ago, which was what I was referencing but didn't make clear, so my bad. BJJ is around $180 at least probably in NYC. Gleason's is world famous, so you're not getting old school rates there. These $30-50 are in the ghettos of Baltimore, Detroit, etc. Maybe you can find some in the Bronx, but it will still be higher than Baltimore.


Quote:
The MMA gym I go to is $200/mo, but I think $200-250 seems to be about the range for MMA gyms around here, and pure BJJ as well too. I'm sure you have to pay out the ass to train at Renzo Gracie's gym.

Ouch, higher than I thought.


Quote:
I can't speak for other MMA gyms, but the experience at my mine is that you spar from the beginning. Our philosophy is that you're not really learning to fight if you're never fighting. So I object to the notion that MMA gyms necessarily "coddle" the students, especially given that the atmosphere where I train is rather intense. I don't think teaching necessarily equates to coddling. I think the difference in teaching style is due to the cultural difference.

Yeah but you spar, LIGHT. Especially with MMA 4-7oz gloves, you only TAP spar, which is lighter than LIGHT when you first start out. Noobs usually also spar light with 16oz Boxing gloves. It's only when you spar grappling only that you can go up to 100%, but that ain't Full MMA sparring.



All this is NOT the same as what we're discussing...which is, many old school Boxing gyms will throw you in to get knocked the **** out for your 1st time sparring, ever....or at least getting knocked down....to see if you come back.



Quote:
MMA gyms are often teaching students to either 1) compete in MMA and/or 2) learn to defend themselves. Boxing on the other hand, was always meant to be for entertainment, for sport. So, as you were saying yourself above, a trainer won't waste time on someone without natural talent, because they want to train people who will make them money.

This is #1 BS. Throwing hands to knock someone the **** out, is indeed, learning to defend oneself....if you need someone to tell you this in a brochure to believe that it's true, then you probably haven't trained long, let alone fought in the cage before.


Quote:
If you're average joe schmo who wants to learn to defend yourself against punches and whatever else someone may throw at you, it makes far more sense to me to just shell out for an MMA gym membership rather than waste $30-$50/mo at a gym where you may or may not ever actually learn to box, and at best will get thrown into spar occasionally.

I've been training nearly 15 years in MMA, mostly Muay Thai and Boxing and enough BJJ for the ground and 7 ammy fights. There are many people who do just fine at these $30-50 gyms. But these gyms are hard to find now as most new Boxing gyms have gone the route of the newer, coddling model to make more money. Most of the $50 gyms that are left, are probably in ****ed up neighborhoods and it's scary as **** to go there unless you really need to buy drugs....not for routine Boxing training to save $50-60/month but risk getting robbed & shot.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,695 posts, read 985,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Yeah but you spar, LIGHT. Especially with MMA 4-7oz gloves, you only TAP spar, which is lighter than LIGHT when you first start out. Noobs usually also spar light with 16oz Boxing gloves. It's only when you spar grappling only that you can go up to 100%, but that ain't Full MMA sparring.
I was under the impression that in most striking arts, you aren't full sparring everyday, let alone trying to knock the person out. Wouldn't it be counterproductive to be getting knocked out in practice, when you need to preserve your chin for actual fights? Perhaps my impression is mistaken, I'm very new to training martial arts and wouldn't know these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
All this is NOT the same as what we're discussing...which is, many old school Boxing gyms will throw you in to get knocked the **** out for your 1st time sparring, ever....or at least getting knocked down....to see if you come back.
I'm not really disputing this fact, I just don't think that throwing someone in the ring to get knocked out is the ideal recommendation for someone who wants to learn to defend themselves from punches. I'm not opposed to getting that initial shock to the system generally - I think in learning to fight, you have to be willing to put yourself through discomfort, and you do have to realize that it's serious, life or death business. I'm just saying there should at least be some guidance. I don't think a complete noob should be getting knocked out on the first day, that just seems ****ed up and unnecessary. Getting a little roughed up is fine, but there's no need for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
This is #1 BS. Throwing hands to knock someone the **** out, is indeed, learning to defend oneself....if you need someone to tell you this in a brochure to believe that it's true, then you probably haven't trained long, let alone fought in the cage before.
Perhaps we're miscommunicating. I 100% believe that if you learn to box you'll have an advantage over 95% of guys out there in street fight situations, and it's certainly one means to defend yourself. This old-school mentality that we're talking about just doesn't seem to me to be the ideal route for the average guy to take who's simply looking to learn self-defense (or at least this one aspect of it), especially when I see the passion that my coach has and what a structured, detailed system he's created. I just can't imagine that throwing someone in the ring to get knocked out with no instruction (which is what prompted the whole discussion earlier in the thread) is the ideal way to teach self defense against strikes, especially when I see the example set by my teacher and the fighters at our gym. What about technique? What about instruction? I just think even $30-$50/mo is a waste if all you're going to do is show up to a gym, shadowbox on your own without any instruction on how to throw punches unless you show that you're talented or otherwise worthy of teaching. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the approach you described.

You're right, I'm 100% new to martial arts, and have not yet fought in a cage (but one day I hope to). I'm not meaning to speak as an authority here, but this is just my opinion based on what I've observed, and my opinion on how skills are best taught effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
I've been training nearly 15 years in MMA, mostly Muay Thai and Boxing and enough BJJ for the ground and 7 ammy fights. There are many people who do just fine at these $30-50 gyms. But these gyms are hard to find now as most new Boxing gyms have gone the route of the newer, coddling model to make more money. Most of the $50 gyms that are left, are probably in ****ed up neighborhoods and it's scary as **** to go there unless you really need to buy drugs....not for routine Boxing training to save $50-60/month but risk getting robbed & shot.
Well then it sounds like there's only one way to go then, for the OP and everyone else. I don't see how actually teaching technique is "coddling" though. To me, that's simply teaching.

Last edited by Valhallian; 08-27-2018 at 07:41 AM..
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Old 08-30-2018, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
I was under the impression that in most striking arts, you aren't full sparring everyday, let alone trying to knock the person out. Wouldn't it be counterproductive to be getting knocked out in practice, when you need to preserve your chin for actual fights? Perhaps my impression is mistaken, I'm very new to training martial arts and wouldn't know these things.

In general, not for Boxing, which was why I was agreeing with @Jobster on the basis that Boxing will turn you from zero to a fighter/self defense(der), much faster than all other arts. And yes, you could get ****ed up in the process, lol.



Most to all other striking arts don't usually train this dangerously, with maybe the exception of Wrestling.....which, I'm really on the fence now, as to which is better for the above....Boxing or Wrestling.



Let's put it this way, if you were a kid living in a really bad neighborhood and getting the **** kicked out of you once a week, and scared ****less to walk to school, etc.....then you'd need something right ****ing now and not some long, drawn out process of becoming a calculated sports fighter, or worse....a usually useless, Martial Artist. You need to get used to the blunt force trauma of fists flying and landing on your face, not freak out, and fight back. I was scared ****less the 1st time sparring hard....the fear didn't go away for many months, then the fear came back when tougher guys came in.....then after many years, I became the guy whom others feared at the gym.....then I started enjoying the head trauma...like if I didn't get hit enough & hard, then it wasn't a good training session.....but also learned to know when to stop and rest for a while. And I trained knowing full well that I was never going to fight for a living, just a hobby.



Knowing what I know now, I would not have trained this hard (sparring) so early and so often...but it was still not as rough as those old school boxing gyms that we're debating about neither. So yes, I believe that your chin/head has an odometer, and you spend much of those miles every time you get hit in the head, hard. That's why you see dudes like Overeem, Cowboy Ceronne, etc. becoming "chinny" and go down too easy often now.
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Old 08-30-2018, 01:02 PM
 
295 posts, read 323,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
I'm not really disputing this fact, I just don't think that throwing someone in the ring to get knocked out is the ideal recommendation for someone who wants to learn to defend themselves from punches. I'm not opposed to getting that initial shock to the system generally - I think in learning to fight, you have to be willing to put yourself through discomfort, and you do have to realize that it's serious, life or death business. I'm just saying there should at least be some guidance. I don't think a complete noob should be getting knocked out on the first day, that just seems ****ed up and unnecessary. Getting a little roughed up is fine, but there's no need for that.


Perhaps we're miscommunicating. I 100% believe that if you learn to box you'll have an advantage over 95% of guys out there in street fight situations, and it's certainly one means to defend yourself. This old-school mentality that we're talking about just doesn't seem to me to be the ideal route for the average guy to take who's simply looking to learn self-defense (or at least this one aspect of it), especially when I see the passion that my coach has and what a structured, detailed system he's created. I just can't imagine that throwing someone in the ring to get knocked out with no instruction (which is what prompted the whole discussion earlier in the thread) is the ideal way to teach self defense against strikes, especially when I see the example set by my teacher and the fighters at our gym. What about technique? What about instruction? I just think even $30-$50/mo is a waste if all you're going to do is show up to a gym, shadowbox on your own without any instruction on how to throw punches unless you show that you're talented or otherwise worthy of teaching. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the approach you described.

Well this does happen in Old School Boxing gyms whether you think it's good or not. And many of the greatest Boxers throughout history, come out of these places. These are in neighborhoods where it's common to see little kids purposefully get caught by the law to go to Juvie because it's like summer camp there for them and they get cake....way better than what's at home for them. I used to go witnessing Jesus to kids at Juvenile Detention, and the guards tell us this. So I don't think they can afford that $180/month that you're paying.



Quote:
You're right, I'm 100% new to martial arts, and have not yet fought in a cage (but one day I hope to). I'm not meaning to speak as an authority here, but this is just my opinion based on what I've observed, and my opinion on how skills are best taught effectively.

Well then it sounds like there's only one way to go then, for the OP and everyone else. I don't see how actually teaching technique is "coddling" though. To me, that's simply teaching.

I'm not saying it's the only way to go. I'm just saying that it's the FASTEST, most effective way.



How you're training is probably exactly how I trained and paid $150/month for it and for many years....and now, that's how I teach and charging $150/mo for it. But it's still coddling, compared to old school Boxing gyms. You just don't like this word, "coddling", lol.
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Old 09-07-2018, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
2,695 posts, read 985,647 times
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Originally Posted by LSone View Post
In general, not for Boxing, which was why I was agreeing with @Jobster on the basis that Boxing will turn you from zero to a fighter/self defense(der), much faster than all other arts. And yes, you could get ****ed up in the process, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Let's put it this way, if you were a kid living in a really bad neighborhood and getting the **** kicked out of you once a week, and scared ****less to walk to school, etc.....then you'd need something right ****ing now and not some long, drawn out process of becoming a calculated sports fighter, or worse....a usually useless, Martial Artist. You need to get used to the blunt force trauma of fists flying and landing on your face, not freak out, and fight back. I was scared ****less the 1st time sparring hard....the fear didn't go away for many months, then the fear came back when tougher guys came in.....then after many years, I became the guy whom others feared at the gym.....then I started enjoying the head trauma...like if I didn't get hit enough & hard, then it wasn't a good training session.....but also learned to know when to stop and rest for a while. And I trained knowing full well that I was never going to fight for a living, just a hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
I'm not saying it's the only way to go. I'm just saying that it's the FASTEST, most effective way.

Well I'll admit you've sold me. As I've been training more lately, and thinking about my progress so far, I think I have to agree. While I trust in our system and that it will really build me up to being a complete fighter one day, I think it's going to be a couple years of training before I feel like I can actually fight. From what you described it sounds like boxing would probably get you the fastest to where you want to go in terms of being able to have a couple moves to mix it up right away. The gym I train at has a philosophy of building up your grappling first, which is super precise and technical - doesn't exactly give me moves I felt right away I could execute effectively in a streetfight. Aside from learning the MMA stance, and a little bit of blocking punches, on my feet I feel very vulnerable. When it comes down to it all I am is a super white belt BJJ guy who hasn't earned his first stripe and knows a few judo throws and a couple wrestling takedowns.

I don't know whether wrestling has dangerous training, but I did do take a Greco-Roman wrestling seminar about a month ago and felt super beat up from it all week. Throws over and over and over again take their toll...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSone View Post
How you're training is probably exactly how I trained and paid $150/month for it and for many years....and now, that's how I teach and charging $150/mo for it. But it's still coddling, compared to old school Boxing gyms. You just don't like this word, "coddling", lol.
Well you've got me there. I find the "coddling" training to be stressful enough as it is dammit! (Working on it tho).

Btw, with your experience, would love if you could drop some knowledge in this thread I started in the exercise in fitness forum, asking about balancing weight lifting with fighting. My goals have changed since I started the thread, but would love input regardless.

For Those of You That Balance Weightlifting with Martial Arts
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:17 AM
 
295 posts, read 323,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Well I'll admit you've sold me. As I've been training more lately, and thinking about my progress so far, I think I have to agree. While I trust in our system and that it will really build me up to being a complete fighter one day, I think it's going to be a couple years of training before I feel like I can actually fight. From what you described it sounds like boxing would probably get you the fastest to where you want to go in terms of being able to have a couple moves to mix it up right away. The gym I train at has a philosophy of building up your grappling first, which is super precise and technical - doesn't exactly give me moves I felt right away I could execute effectively in a streetfight. Aside from learning the MMA stance, and a little bit of blocking punches, on my feet I feel very vulnerable. When it comes down to it all I am is a super white belt BJJ guy who hasn't earned his first stripe and knows a few judo throws and a couple wrestling takedowns.

Sorry I've been out and haven't checked this board to respond. The good news with your training in BJJ and at your current level is that you can handle most people your size and smaller and even bigger ones as most are untrained. You usually just have to cover up and get in the clinch to take them down. And once you're mounted, which should be easy, it doesn't take a lot of training to rain down punches on them from the dominant, full mount position.


I remember when I 1st started BJJ, this was around when the UFC was only at UFC 10 or something, and the BJJ craze was starting to hit....after just 2 months of training, I wanted to grapple most of my untrained friends and would usually beat them pretty easy. And most of them were athletic and didn't want to lose. Then I quit after a few months then came back and all the White belts that continued were like Browns = not a good feeling.



Quote:
I don't know whether wrestling has dangerous training, but I did do take a Greco-Roman wrestling seminar about a month ago and felt super beat up from it all week. Throws over and over and over again take their toll...
Competitive wrestling is no joke. There's a reason why when someone opens up a Fighting/MA Gym, most insurance carriers will not accept gyms that trains Boxing or Wrestling; so everything else is ok....like Muay Thai, BJJ, and all sorts of Kung-Fooey = no problem....just no Boxing nor Wrestling b/c they result in the highest injuries/risks.


Look at this little kid here at 8 years old. He's special, but I see little kids close to him at the local level all the time in Wrestling competitions. Imagine his level of training and what he'll be like in high school if he keeps it up. Then college, then UFC?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8


Quote:
Well you've got me there. I find the "coddling" training to be stressful enough as it is dammit! (Working on it tho).

Btw, with your experience, would love if you could drop some knowledge in this thread I started in the exercise in fitness forum, asking about balancing weight lifting with fighting. My goals have changed since I started the thread, but would love input regardless.

For Those of You That Balance Weightlifting with Martial Arts
This is an area where I'm not well versed with and is one of my weaknesses. I don't concentrate enough on strength. My fight game is mostly speed and precision but not enough strength as I try to cut a lot of weight when I fight to have a size advantage. I can only say that you don't want too much bulk and keep it functional and explosive....but this is just general and you already know this. This is why many MMA gyms have "strength and conditioning" classes in the last 10 years or so.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LSone View Post
Wrong, these are the gyms where many Champion are made, not to mention tons of high level contenders. That's just how Boxing is.
No, it is a **** poor gym, that is not "how boxing is". That is not how any combat sport is. That is however how a **** poor gym is.
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Old 10-07-2018, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica, Ca
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Originally Posted by budlight View Post
Run Forrest Run!!!
Yup... itís a poor set of legs that will let a man stand there and take a beating.
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