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Old 07-18-2018, 04:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PortCity View Post
I have to tip toe in this debate a little but as far as I know South Sky is a native Mobilian who graduated from Murphy High School and later from LSU am I correct ? And as far as Mardi Gras goes again there are well over 100 Mardi Gras associtations.Unfortunately some are segregated but they are private social clubs.Out of the 100 plus societies (Krewes) some are segregated, integrated, LGBT, Old Mobile Creole families( which a form of segregation if your not Creole), and etc etc etc. The same can be said for other older established Mardi Gras cities such as Fairhope ,NOLA, Baton Rouge ,Galveston, and Biloxi.

There is noooo place on this planet that does not have segregated private social groups, no where ! Even in liberal cities of Cali there are segregated private social clubs. I'm a 32 year old black male,who is a native Mobilian.Lived in Harlem for a short stint of almost 4 months and Huntsville for a little over 3 years but majority of my time has been in Mobile.
Was waiting for you to respond. Of course there are private clubs. But the real question is why would a legacy Mardi Gras Assoc., such as OOMs, want to keep minorities out (if that's the case - perhaps none want to join, but I would find that hard to believe)? The fact that it is private really is not relevant to answering the question. I would be interested in knowing what % of the legacy Mardi Gras associations in Mobile are minority. I bet the %s are much higher in New Orleans.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:21 PM
 
1,368 posts, read 1,582,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
Yes, I can answer most of these, but it doesn't change the fact that Mobile has problems/challenges? Why has there been 'white flight' to west Mobile and Daphne/Fairhope? Why are the public schools in Mobile County so poor (indicated by test scores)? Why do legacy Mardi Gras societies and Mobile Country Club have very few minorities?
Again, yes, like everywhere else there are problems/challenges.

White flight, now largely slowing up (reversing according to many sources), was the result of several issues that cropped up in the 70s, 80s and 90s: the spike in violent crime which was seen nationally, but definitely also seen in Mobile, deteriorating housing stock, declining public school quality, and, frankly, a little bit of racism (this would be nation-wide as well).

Public schools in Mobile aren't across the board poor. For instance, just a couple of years ago (I haven't seen recent numbers), some inner-city schools had higher graduation rates than some suburban schools in WeMo and the Eastern Shore. However, the largest indicator for poorly-performing schools in general, like most other urban areas across the country, is poverty. Poverty in swaths of north Mobile is a principal indicator for poor grades. Depressed wages in those areas certainly contribute. There are certainly failing schools in Mobile county. However, I'd venture to guess those schools are in areas of poverty which doesn't necessarily reflect on the schools themselves.

As for Mardi Gras, the "principal" organizations in Mobile (read: your typical Mardi Gras weekend parade organization) started up after the Civil War when society was still very much segregated. Both majority and minority organizations sprouted up. Nowadays, the newer organizations are very much integrated while the "traditional" organizations (both majority and minority) have changed very little. It is my understanding you can't just get into the older organizations if you're white/black/polka-dotted. You really need to have a family member that can get you in to the organization (membership numbers are typically capped). That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for "uncharted territory" like starting new membership drives and such. The Country Club of Mobile membership probably followed that same trajectory. It is also expensive to join, so economics also play a part in the "exclusivity". All of this considered, I do not take personal offense to what people do in their private clubs as long as they don't negatively affect anyone. If the reason for a club to exist is racism or such, then it is certainly damnable. However, most of these (if not all) organizations certainly don't exist for racist reasons.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Mobile,Al(the city by the bay)
4,791 posts, read 8,308,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
Was waiting for you to respond. Of course there are private clubs. But the real question is why would a legacy Mardi Gras Assoc., such as OOMs, want to keep minorities out (if that's the case - perhaps none want to join, but I would find that hard to believe)? The fact that it is private really is not relevant to answering the question. I would be interested in knowing what % of the legacy Mardi Gras associations in Mobile are minority. I bet the %s are much higher in New Orleans.
The answer is clearly rcaism ! And to be honest there arent many even in NOLA. The OOM in Mobile is actually the olde active Society(Krewe) out the two. It's ignorant that the older legacy societies are racist but there are so many that are integrated too. Why we can y celebrate and achnildge the societies that are integrated or the ones that celebrate the LGBT community ? Even the old Creole famikea of Mobile have their own societies and they are prejudice to an extent. It may not be race related because you have Creole of color and some who look more Eurocenteic.Never less it's still a form of prejudice because if you're not from an old French or Creole family you can't be apart.

As for downtown it depends on what cities your comparing Mobile to ? As far as metros our size such as: Pensacola,Montgomery,Huntsville, Jackson,Tallahasse,Augusta, Shreveport, Chattanooga and etc.We are on par or have outpaced some of those cities regarding downtown developments in the past 15years or so. If you are comparing us to New Orleans,Birmingham,Nashville, Or Tamapa then maybe no.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:45 PM
 
5,128 posts, read 2,835,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southsky View Post
Again, yes, like everywhere else there are problems/challenges.

White flight, now largely slowing up (reversing according to many sources), was the result of several issues that cropped up in the 70s, 80s and 90s: the spike in violent crime which was seen nationally, but definitely also seen in Mobile, deteriorating housing stock, declining public school quality, and, frankly, a little bit of racism (this would be nation-wide as well).

Public schools in Mobile aren't across the board poor. For instance, just a couple of years ago, some inner-city schools had higher graduation rates than some suburban schools in WeMo and the Eastern Shore. However, the largest indicator for poor schools in general, like most other urban areas across the country, is poverty. Poverty in swaths of north Mobile is a principal indicator for poor grades. Depressed wages in those areas certainly contribute. There are certainly failing schools in Mobile county. However, I'd venture to guess those schools are in areas of poverty which doesn't necessarily reflect on the schools themselves.

As for Mardi Gras, the "principal" organizations in Mobile (read: your typical Mardi Gras weekend parade organization) started up after the Civil War when society was still very much segregated. Both majority and minority organizations sprouted up. Nowadays, the newer organizations are very much integrated while the "traditional" organizations (both majority and minority) have changed very little. It is my understanding you can't just get into the older organizations if you're white/black/polka-dotted. You really need to have a family member that can get you in to the organization (membership numbers are typically capped). That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for "uncharted territory" like starting new membership drives and such. The Country Club of Mobile membership probably followed that same trajectory. It is also expensive to join, so economics also play a part in the "exclusivity". All of this considered, I do not take personal offense to what people do in their private clubs as long as they don't affect anyone. If the reason for a club to exist is racism or such, then it is certainly damnable.
If you have people who are minority and want to join a club, be it private or public, and there is a pattern of denial for that group (without legitimate reason), that IS a form of racism, IMO. Often, the excuse is given that you had to have family in the association in the past to be admitted. Interestingly, you sometimes have 'monied' people new to Mobile who are admitted.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:47 PM
 
1,368 posts, read 1,582,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
If you have people who are minority and want to join a club, be it private or public, and there is a pattern of denial for that group (without legitimate reason), that IS a form of racism, IMO.
Agreed. Like we have been saying, most groups in Mobile aren't like that.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:57 PM
 
5,128 posts, read 2,835,166 times
Reputation: 5069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southsky View Post
Again, yes, like everywhere else there are problems/challenges.

White flight, now largely slowing up (reversing according to many sources), was the result of several issues that cropped up in the 70s, 80s and 90s: the spike in violent crime which was seen nationally, but definitely also seen in Mobile, deteriorating housing stock, declining public school quality, and, frankly, a little bit of racism (this would be nation-wide as well).

Public schools in Mobile aren't across the board poor. For instance, just a couple of years ago (I haven't seen recent numbers), some inner-city schools had higher graduation rates than some suburban schools in WeMo and the Eastern Shore. However, the largest indicator for poorly-performing schools in general, like most other urban areas across the country, is poverty. Poverty in swaths of north Mobile is a principal indicator for poor grades. Depressed wages in those areas certainly contribute. There are certainly failing schools in Mobile county. However, I'd venture to guess those schools are in areas of poverty which doesn't necessarily reflect on the schools themselves.

As for Mardi Gras, the "principal" organizations in Mobile (read: your typical Mardi Gras weekend parade organization) started up after the Civil War when society was still very much segregated. Both majority and minority organizations sprouted up. Nowadays, the newer organizations are very much integrated while the "traditional" organizations (both majority and minority) have changed very little. It is my understanding you can't just get into the older organizations if you're white/black/polka-dotted. You really need to have a family member that can get you in to the organization (membership numbers are typically capped). That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for "uncharted territory" like starting new membership drives and such. The Country Club of Mobile membership probably followed that same trajectory. It is also expensive to join, so economics also play a part in the "exclusivity". All of this considered, I do not take personal offense to what people do in their private clubs as long as they don't negatively affect anyone. If the reason for a club to exist is racism or such, then it is certainly damnable. However, most of these (if not all) organizations certainly don't exist for racist reasons.
Comments: Mobile County Public Schools ARE poor (ask any parent of a child who goes to UMS/Wright or St. Pauls OR who has moved to the Eastern Shore for better schools). Many public school principals and teachers will likely tell you this in confidence. You stated that the 'principal' organizations started after the Civil War. Thankfully, we've come a long way since then. Perhaps, these organizations' admission policies should be updated to reflect todays' values. There's a reason we don't fly Civil War flags at Mobile public office buildings or public schools.

Last edited by Lizap; 07-18-2018 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:08 PM
 
1,368 posts, read 1,582,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
Comments: Mobile County Public Schools ARE poor (ask any parent of a child who goes to UMS/Wright or St. Pauls OR who has moved to the Eastern Shore for better schools). Many public school principals and teachers will tell you this in confidence. You stated that the 'principal' organizations started after the Civil War. Thankfully, we've come a long way since then. Perhaps, these organizations' admission policies should be updated to reflect todays' values.
Asking people that are sending their kids to other schools about the "other, other schools" is a bit biased, don't you think? And, I know some teachers in Mobile that say the exact opposite. A lot of the school banter in either direction is hearsay, so going down that road isn't worth our time. The only metrics we have at this point would be test scores - which I touched on earlier - and those are a mixed bag across both Mobile and Baldwin counties. Generally, poorer areas do worse than others. The poorer areas in Mobile county (or any other county, Baldwin included) will most usually be host to the worst performing schools.

Perhaps these few organizations' policies can change. However, positing their existence is as emblematic of the entire system is wrong.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:16 PM
 
5,128 posts, read 2,835,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southsky View Post
Asking people that are sending their kids to other schools about the "other, other schools" is a bit biased, don't you think? And, I know some teachers in Mobile that say the exact opposite. A lot of the school banter in either direction is hearsay, so going down that road isn't worth our time. The only metrics we have at this point would be test scores - which I touched on earlier - and those are a mixed bag across both Mobile and Baldwin counties. Generally, poorer areas do worse than others. The poorer areas in Mobile county (or any other county, Baldwin included) will most usually be host to the worst performing schools.

Perhaps these few organizations' policies can change. However, positing their existence is as emblematic of the entire system is wrong.
I can assure you my comments regarding the MCPSS aren't 'hearsay'. The 'entire system' isn't necessarily wrong, but these policies do represent some issues that I believe these organizations need to address.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Mobile,Al(the city by the bay)
4,791 posts, read 8,308,772 times
Reputation: 1896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
Comments: Mobile County Public Schools ARE poor (ask any parent of a child who goes to UMS/Wright or St. Pauls OR who has moved to the Eastern Shore for better schools). Many public school principals and teachers will tell you this in confidence. You stated that the 'principal' organizations started after the Civil War. Thankfully, we've come a long way since then. Perhaps, these organizations' admission policies should be updated to reflect todays' values.
And 90% of those who attend those schools parents are in what tax bracket again ? And are usually in the Legacy Mardi Gars Societies .

And the idea that Eastern shore schools is better are a perception.They do not have the impoverish communities that Mobile have and to say the entire school sytem is poor is asinine.

I graduated from Leflore and Leflore was never on the failing school list. When Leflore was a magnet school inspite of it being in a traditional impoverish community the test scores didn't reflect that.You know why ? Because Leflore was the school for middle class and upper middle class blacks. At one time the school had 1900 students and they were bused from all over the county. When the Magnet program was slashed so did the demographic back ground and now it has 700 students and was just recently on the failing school list.It's been over 10 years since i've graduated but the demographics are not the same as far as the economic back ground and the scores reflect that.

Baldwin County does not have a Da Bottoms, Camp Ground, Toulminville, Trinity Gardens, Down the Bay,Maysville, or etc.That's is why the perception is that its better when in facts its not.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:21 PM
 
1,368 posts, read 1,582,906 times
Reputation: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
I can assure you my comments regarding the MCPSS aren't 'hearsay'.
That is the definition of hearsay... my comments too about teachers saying the opposite of your comments: hearsay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizap View Post
The 'entire system' isn't necessarily wrong, but these policies do represent some issues that I believe these organizations need to address.
Certainly any negative issues need to be addressed...
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