Gustav/Hurricane Info here (insurance, house, landscaping)

[southernnaturelover]

Anybody here preparing for Gustav yet? I'm getting my huge pecan tree trimmed tomorrow, it damaged my house during Ivan so I'm not taking chances again. I'm going to go ahead and get my diesel for the generator in the morning. I'm ready for winter already.

[Threestep2]

It looks like FAA is positioning planes and volunteer pilots for air bridges.

[harry chickpea]

Be prepared for an invasion of FEMA terrorists if anything happens. The horror stories of FEMA actively blocking private and out of area aid to the Katrina victims are enough to make your hair curl.

[Threestep2]

Harry - I hardly ever contradict a post here and this may get me into Keeper's crock pot.
You do not have a lot of the insider facts. Particularly from those who went into NO right after it hit; some at their own risk and expense. None of them were interested in CNN coverage but in helping for whatever reason. What did you personally contribute or do? How many strangers did you feed, find shelter for, talked to employers about, got dressed and ready for an interview or a first day at work? It is so easy to talk about others be it a person or an organization. FYI - we have no ties to NO but the potential need of others.

[harry chickpea]

Threestep - I'm not sure you are being contradictory. I was in communication with a fellow from Tennessee who attempted to bring his complete self-contained concession trailer along with a supply of food for the victims of Katrina. You'll need to go to the archives in Google Groups and look up "Operation Chitlin" to read the full texts of his posts attempting to get into the area and help. FEMA bureaucracy acted more as a roadblock to him and other charitable people than anything else. The problems were also fairly well documented elsewhere. Even the Coast Guard and other military were upset with the way FEMA was handling things.

I have no issues with charities trying to help, and I have no issues with the need of keeping public order, but I do have a problem with an agency charged with the task of helping ending up being a detriment to the activities of the first two groups.

We got out of hurricane country. As I said in another recent post in the Florida forum, if you are prepared, getting through a hurricane is usually pretty simple. It is the dealing with the aftermath and hassles of governmental red tape, insurance company games, and dealing with contractors that make the reconstruction horrid and stressful.

[Threestep2]

See the other side - you cannot have X-number of individuals coming into an emergency area. Start with liability issues, work your way to infrastructure.

[breer23]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

FEMA bureaucracy acted more as a roadblock to him and other charitable people than anything else. The problems were also fairly well documented elsewhere. Even the Coast Guard and other military were upset with the way FEMA was handling things.

Let's just hope that if (God forbid) another disaster does occur b/c of Gustav (or any other storm), that a lot of lessons have been learned by FEMA (and the gov't overall) with regards to accepting help that is offered by charitable and other outside sources.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by Threestep

See the other side - you cannot have X-number of individuals coming into an emergency area. Start with liability issues, work your way to infrastructure.

I understand your point. If FEMA worked perfectly, then perhaps it would be valid. It doesn't by a longshot, and because of that, your point falls down - badly.

I think we are both understanding that there needs to be law and order, even martial law, in an area that has been devastated. That is a function of local police and the National Guard. The U.S. military is otherwise prohibited by acting in a military capacity within our borders.

What FEMA attempts to do is circumvent that proscription and flip control from the local and state levels to the Federal level. It might be convenient, but it is illegal. Federal AID does not convert to Federal CONTROL, at least not in the Constitution I live under. If FEMA came into my area and started directing me, my first comment would be "Just when did you become my elected official? I sure as H didn't vote for you, nor agree to any unwritten law giving you power, when such laws are specifically NOT allowed by the Constitution." We have been lulled into thinking that FEMA is required for the scope of disasters we experience, simply because of news footage, calls for Federal aid, and a desire to have a single responsible entity when people act irresponsibly during a disaster.

FEMA acted as a constipated gatekeeper in the NO area after Katrina, actively prohibiting church groups and private charities from doing their good work. FEMA kept an entire flotilla of airboat volunteers and their crafts from rescuing stranded people, while it was not able or willing to allocate enough manpower and equipment to rescue efforts. Bluntly, FEMA's presence in NO CAUSED deaths instead of preventing them.

You talk about liability issues. I talk about needless deaths and suffering. Yes, volunteers put themselves in harms way, and yes, many of them might not be fully aware of the strains and stresses on them. A few will get sick, some might even die. Such is life. When there is a disaster of the proportions of the NO disaster, personal liability is simply not a sane concern, any more than excessively worrying about catching herpes is when saving a dozen people by performing mouth to mouth resuscitation.

I'll go further, and state that unfair protection from liability is partly what caused the deaths in NO. The incompetent people working at FEMA and controlling the rescue efforts were protected from personal liability and had no pressing personal need to try to cut through the red tape and bureaucracy that was killing people. It was "Just shut up and do what the boss orders, even if he is clueless. We're protected anyway, all we have to do is say that we did what was ordered." The military has rules in place to remove the incompetent. FEMA didn't and doesn't.

The families of those who died waiting for rescue had no real recourse, physical or financial, against the restriction of aid that would have otherwise flowed to them and saved many. Why? Because one cannot sue Brownie or George Bush when they flub up and flounder. They are protected against personal liability by their positions within the government. Is that fair or right? If the job was done competently, and triage had to occur, then the answer might be yes. When it was done as poorly as it was, then my opinion is NO!

A major platform of the Libertarians and Neo-cons has been personal responsibility. When the actions of institutionalized delay and denial at the hands of two men cause deaths and further destruction, just how is it that those same people think they can morally avoid the consequences of their actions? Brownie should be in jail for manslaughter. Period. End of sentence. GW should have, at the least, had a public censure by the Congress for his failure to act responsibly, and revocation of all funding for FEMA. The Government of LA and NO also bear responsibility, and the failings of their leaders should have been handled locally. Unfortunately, the remaining residents are so used to, and complicit in, accepting corruption that they have little will to hold anyone accountable for anything.

You are concerned that the infrastructure cannot handle the influx of volunteers and rescuers during an emergency and state that a Federal government agency has to be the final arbiter of who can help and who cannot. To that I say "Phooey!" This country has managed to work out from under disasters before without such an incompetent nanny, and it can do it in the future if given a chance. The failing infrastructure in NO was not so much the physical roads and water pipes as it was the leadership charged with the task of overseeing the rescue efforts.

When we look back in a few years and evaluate, I think many will eventually agree that the worst thing we did after Katrina was expand the scope of FEMA, rather than gutting it entirely, and at least turning it back into an after-the-fact funding source for repair efforts. The decent folks who now have careers invested in FEMA could do just as good an on-site job when working on a local basis, with, not against, churches, charities, and individuals. The political hangers-on invested in FEMA can go ... somewhere.

That FEMA exists at all is problematic. Declarations of emergency are fast becoming gravy trains for states and municipalities. When FEMA came through after Wilma in south Florida, it had the effect of rewarding those who didn't prepare, pouring money into the hands of fast-talking contractors using untrained off-the-street labor, and turning into a cash resource for municipalities, who learned that FEMA could at least partly fund new landscaping and other projects, without requiring voter approval.

A petty but instructive example? FEMA made an agreement with the city I lived in to pay for removal of all damaged trees on public property and swales. The city was to get the trees removed and funds to replace them. Crews of cutters came through, removed the bulk of the trees, then lightly used stump cutters to mound sawdust over the old stumps. As the sawdust rotted and the stumps were exposed, homeowners were hit with citations by the city for having those stumps in the swales (land between the sidewalks and street that is technically owned by a homeowner, but cannot be used for anything, and must be maintained at homeowner expense). So a second set of crews then came in and made money off the homeowners, because of the lack of FEMA and city oversight of the first crews. The city didn't care. It had it's money. It knew it could bully the homeowners into completing the job. FEMA didn't care. The city had signed off on the work, and it had other things to do.

In the coming days, there will SEEM to be some compelling reasons for FEMA, there will SEEM to be no way that we could survive without it. If you do nothing else, look at some of those reports with at least a modicum of cynicism. Consider that Chicago and San Francisco both burned to the ground and rebuilt (quickly) without FEMA. Somehow. Maybe people were stronger back then.

[artifice]

Harry I agree with some of what you say...government can't do much of anything right better left to the private sector. Mississippi rebuilt very efficiently and quickly after Katrina...let's not forget they were hit with the strongest part of the storm. Parts of America are still very strong...the parts that don't sit and wait for the "nanny" to give them a free hand out. I worked Katrina and Rita and I'll tell you there was a huge difference in the two regions. N.O. is entitled and always looking to be the victim that outsiders have to come in and rescue and then they complain about how you didn't help them correctly...Beaumont was looking to help each other and make the best of it with little outside efforts but boy were they happy and appreciate of us being there.

[Threestep2]

It looks like it is time to get moving. NO and Savannah.