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Old 10-16-2010, 09:30 AM
 
Location: State of General Disarray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
I think its all about economics, not necessity. Exxon will save a million dollars or more a load, on shipping costs by cutting out passage though the Panama Canal. Of course they are going to try to ship through Montana, if they can save a couple of hundred million dollars. Even if it is not the most practical route.
bingo... This is all about profit maximization. They've gotten a good deal from the Port of Lewiston & I suspect the permit fees from Idaho and Montana are relatively cheap.

Here's an update: Imperial Oil denies report it will use U.S. 12 until 2020 for huge loads

I don't know where, or how, these documents were acquired, but it's not a stretch to imagine that this route will be used for similar shipments in the future.
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Old 10-16-2010, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
There are political ramifications to using the Canal. The Canal is currently operated by the Chinese and as such, they will not allow countries that they are not friendly with, to use the canal. So the question is, is China friendly with the flag these ships are flying? Makes a big difference.
Friendly with Korea? Not hardly. BTW when did the Chinese get hold of the Panama canal??! they're going to own the world at the present rate (they're making large inroads in Africa too, mainly as a grab for natural resources).

I imagine the Suez has similar political issues.
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Old 10-16-2010, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Friendly with Korea? Not hardly. BTW when did the Chinese get hold of the Panama canal??! they're going to own the world at the present rate (they're making large inroads in Africa too, mainly as a grab for natural resources).

I imagine the Suez has similar political issues.
When the US release the Canal back in the 1990's it was turned over to Panama who contracted a Chinese organization to maintain and operate it. We took ships through there in 1996 and had to keep them under US flag until we got them up to San Diego and then could change flags.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
There are political ramifications to using the Canal. The Canal is currently operated by the Chinese and as such, they will not allow countries that they are not friendly with, to use the canal. So the question is, is China friendly with the flag these ships are flying? Makes a big difference.
Thats just so wrong in every way. I don't know where you get your information from.

First off China and South Korea don't have any issues with each other. They are major trading partners. China has no reason to prevent South Korea from using the Panama Canal, even if it was in their power to do so.

Second, it is not in Chinas power to do so. The Panama Canal is 100% owned and operated by the The Panama Canal Authority, an entity of the Government of Panama. And I believe that if Panama even considered turning the Canal over to China they would be in violation of their treaty with the United States, that ensures free passage of all ships through the Canal. And the US Government would then be obligated to seize control of the Canal.


About ACP - PanCanal.com
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Old 10-17-2010, 05:14 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
Thats just so wrong in every way. I don't know where you get your information from.

First off China and South Korea don't have any issues with each other. They are major trading partners. China has no reason to prevent South Korea from using the Panama Canal, even if it was in their power to do so.

Second, it is not in Chinas power to do so. The Panama Canal is 100% owned and operated by the The Panama Canal Authority, an entity of the Government of Panama. And I believe that if Panama even considered turning the Canal over to China they would be in violation of their treaty with the United States, that ensures free passage of all ships through the Canal. And the US Government would then be obligated to seize control of the Canal.


About ACP - PanCanal.com
Between 1999 and 2006 I made over a dozen trips through the canal. I get my information from being there. I worked for an organization out of Washington DC. Our job was to transfer our old Navy ships to Foreign Countries.

I didn't say they were having trouble. I asked if they were having issues. I never worked with Korea. The part you quoted was only part of a conversation. Either use the whole quote or don't use it at all.

China most certainly has control of the canal. That's who I dealt with. I even hired Chinese translators and had to pay them to ride the ship from Charleston all the way to San Diego. They are not cheap.
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Old 10-17-2010, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,852,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Between 1999 and 2006 I made over a dozen trips through the canal. I get my information from being there. I worked for an organization out of Washington DC. Our job was to transfer our old Navy ships to Foreign Countries.

I didn't say they were having trouble. I asked if they were having issues. I never worked with Korea. The part you quoted was only part of a conversation. Either use the whole quote or don't use it at all.

China most certainly has control of the canal. That's who I dealt with. I even hired Chinese translators and had to pay them to ride the ship from Charleston all the way to San Diego. They are not cheap.
"The Panama Canal Authority (ACP) is the entity of the Government of Panama established under Title XIV of the National Constitution with exclusive charge of the operation, administration, management, preservation, maintenance, and modernization of the Canal, as well as its activities and related services, pursuant to legal and constitutional regulations in force, so that the Canal may operate in a safe, continuous, efficient, and profitable manner.

Organic Law of June 11, 1997, furnishes the ACP with legislation for its organization and operation. Because of its importance and uniqueness, the ACP is financially autonomous, has its own patrimony, and the right to administer it.

An Administrator and a Deputy Administrator head the ACP under the supervision of an 11-member Board of Directors. The Administrator is the highest-ranking executive officer and legal representative of the Authority, and is responsible for its administration and the implementation of the policies and decisions of the Board of Directors. The Administrator is appointed for a seven-year term, and may be re-elected for an additional term.

The appointment of the 11 members of the Board of Directors is made as follows:

Nine directors are appointed by the President of the Republic of Panama with the consent of the Cabinet Council and ratification by an absolute majority of the members of the Legislative Assembly.
One director is designated by the Legislative Branch, and may be freely appointed or removed thereby.
The President of the Republic designates one director, who shall chair the Board of Directors and have the rank of Minister of State for Canal Affairs. The Canal Affairs Minister attends Cabinet Council meetings, having the right to voice and vote.
The members of the first Board of Directors were appointed for overlapping terms to ensure their independence from the country's administrations. The Panama Canal constitutes an inalienable patrimony of the Republic of Panama; therefore, it may not be sold, assigned, mortgaged, or otherwise encumbered or transferred. The legal framework of the Panama Canal Authority has the fundamental objective of preserving the conditions for the Canal to always remain an enterprise for the peaceful and uninterrupted service of the maritime community, international trade, and the Republic of Panama."
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
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Have you been through it Kaaboom? I have. I could care less what you dig up on the internet. Go on down there and visit the nice folks. The first ship I took through there was in 1995. It was not a problem to fly foreign flag. But every ship after that we had to maintain US flag until we got through there.

Panama canal is probably not an option just due to the over density of population in the Eastern part of the US and Canada. More disruption to traffic.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Have you been through it Kaaboom? I have. I could care less what you dig up on the internet. Go on down there and visit the nice folks.
Not to mention that the governing body (Panama) and the lessee (apparently China) need not be the same, far as anything I saw on that site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Panama canal is probably not an option just due to the over density of population in the Eastern part of the US and Canada. More disruption to traffic.
Probably about the same traffic if it took the Great Lakes route and northern branch of the Trans-Canada highway. But (even assuming there are no impassable spots) the distance overland, especially if it couldn't make it all the way up the St.Lawrence, could be prohibitive -- I imagine it crawls along at 30mph or less, and that gets to be an awful lot of extra days in transit, with the whole crew paid by the hour. Water transit may be slow but it is cheap. On the other hand, on the eastern route there's no real mountains to climb, which might be even more of a factor.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,385,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Not to mention that the governing body (Panama) and the lessee (apparently China) need not be the same, far as anything I saw on that site.



Probably about the same traffic if it took the Great Lakes route and northern branch of the Trans-Canada highway. But (even assuming there are no impassable spots) the distance overland, especially if it couldn't make it all the way up the St.Lawrence, could be prohibitive -- I imagine it crawls along at 30mph or less, and that gets to be an awful lot of extra days in transit, with the whole crew paid by the hour. Water transit may be slow but it is cheap. On the other hand, on the eastern route there's no real mountains to climb, which might be even more of a factor.
You know, I've been thinking about this. Something that bothers me is that this appears to be a cover up. What I mean by that is this route was figured a long time ago. Permits were researched, trucking and drivers were set up. They've already figured what improvements they are going to have to do to the road. Are they saying the Governor didn't know about this for some time? It's just now becoming public info? And now, the Governor is saying "This just came up and I don't like it."

I think it's been in the works for a while and something leaked out so now the Governor is back peddling.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,579,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
You know, I've been thinking about this. Something that bothers me is that this appears to be a cover up. What I mean by that is this route was figured a long time ago. Permits were researched, trucking and drivers were set up. They've already figured what improvements they are going to have to do to the road. Are they saying the Governor didn't know about this for some time? It's just now becoming public info? And now, the Governor is saying "This just came up and I don't like it."

I think it's been in the works for a while and something leaked out so now the Governor is back peddling.
Considering that the earliest date in any of the articles I read was 2006, at which point they already knew what route they planned to use and what would be coming that way, and apparently already had their initial agreement with the Port of Lewiston ID, I think you may be right. Explain to me how this could otherwise take til NOW, four years later, to become a Controversy??

[My cynical little voice wonders if bribing western-American officials is cheaper than bribing eastern-Canadian officials.]
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