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Old 10-25-2010, 05:23 PM
 
Location: State of General Disarray
837 posts, read 1,279,475 times
Reputation: 1377

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Yes, this can probably be done safely, but so theoretically can deep-water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. This particular debate is just one small piece of the larger petro-energy problems we face. Many of us don't want to assume the risk that the little old Lochsa river will be damaged or its banks eroded by changing the road, building turnouts, or by the chance that one of the loads should roll into the river ("merely" pull it out? Are you serious? HOW??) Has Exxon-Mobil developed a plan to deal with potential accidents on the roadway?

How is it, in this day and age, knowing the damage that can be caused by oil exploration, knowing that in the decades ahead we MUST find alternative energy sources, that the "gimme my oil" crowd still holds sway? Can we not figure out ways to better serve our planet while also filling our fuel needs?

And yes, I have a car and I drive it. I don't consider myself a tree-hugger, but I love our land, I love the west, I love living here, and I believe that preserving our environment and the character of this land, to the highest degree possible, is a larger priority than paying five or ten cents fewer on a gallon of gasoline. The residents of Idaho and Montana will not receive a big enough potential benefit to justify the exploitation of our infrastructure and our land.
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Old 10-25-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,530,030 times
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I think this is pretty small potatos compared to the plan by transcanada pipelines to build an oil pipeline right through the state. The pipeline could bring some good benefits to Montana though. The Montana portion will cost one billion dollars and create lots of jobs. The estimated property tax on the pipeline would be $60 million a year for Montana. There also would be enough volume of oil to allow a refinery to be built in Montana, bringing in lots of jobs and money.

Security of oil supplies has long been a major problem for the USA. Alberta is the best foreign supplier the USA has by a long shot. Not only does Alberta have the second largest known reserves in the world they are best friends and close allies of the USA. You can be sure that the money spent buying Alberta crude is not going to finance enemies of the USA. You will never have to get into a war to protect your energy investments in Alberta. Montana should do everything they can to be the best friend of Alberta. Don't let ND or Idaho get all the business.
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Old 10-25-2010, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,361,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I think this is pretty small potatos compared to the plan by transcanada pipelines to build an oil pipeline right through the state. The pipeline could bring some good benefits to Montana though. The Montana portion will cost one billion dollars and create lots of jobs. The estimated property tax on the pipeline would be $60 million a year for Montana. There also would be enough volume of oil to allow a refinery to be built in Montana, bringing in lots of jobs and money.
-snip -
There are already several Oil Refinerys in Montana. Nobody is going to allow any more to be built. At best they could expand the refinery's they already have.

South Dakota wanted to build a refinery. Land was purchased, money was set aside, and then the "Permit Process" started. It has been 15+ years and there still isn't any refinery standing.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,571,634 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
There are already several Oil Refinerys in Montana. Nobody is going to allow any more to be built. At best they could expand the refinery's they already have.

South Dakota wanted to build a refinery. Land was purchased, money was set aside, and then the "Permit Process" started. It has been 15+ years and there still isn't any refinery standing.
Basically the same problem Grizzfan speaks of... sometimes it's not that there's anything "bad" going to happen, but rather it's being blocked due to something not locally relevant. In the case of S.D. I'd ask who benefits from S.D. not having another refinery... and the answer is obvious -- other refining companies and other refinery-rich states. And don't think that sort of submarine sabotage doesn't go on among corporate or state rivals.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,571,634 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I think this is pretty small potatos compared to the plan by transcanada pipelines to build an oil pipeline right through the state. The pipeline could bring some good benefits to Montana though. The Montana portion will cost one billion dollars and create lots of jobs. The estimated property tax on the pipeline would be $60 million a year for Montana. There also would be enough volume of oil to allow a refinery to be built in Montana, bringing in lots of jobs and money.

Security of oil supplies has long been a major problem for the USA. Alberta is the best foreign supplier the USA has by a long shot. Not only does Alberta have the second largest known reserves in the world they are best friends and close allies of the USA. You can be sure that the money spent buying Alberta crude is not going to finance enemies of the USA. You will never have to get into a war to protect your energy investments in Alberta. Montana should do everything they can to be the best friend of Alberta. Don't let ND or Idaho get all the business.
Hugely good points. It's far better to depend on your friends than on your enemies. And I daresay Alberta is a better friend to Montana than most of the U.S. states would care to be.

Tho as Elk says, there WILL be opposition to, perhaps outright blockage of any new refineries, and tho it may appear to be instigated by some enviro-group, following the money may lead elsewhere entirely. We need to get better at untangling that and doing what's best for ourselves, not what others manipulate us into being or doing.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,571,634 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzfan View Post
Those squimish folks who oppose this venture are Luddites pure and simple. (Look up the definition!) We need access to petroleum from friends not those who hate us. Canada already supplies huge amounts of petroleum to Montana and the US. They are our friends. Sure I wish the units had been made here but we no longer have that capability. Get on the net and see how they have been moving big stuff in Europe with 15-20 axles or more. It can be done safely and if one rolls into the Lochsha, we'll merely have to pull it out.
And most of Europe has gawdawful atrocious roads compared to the U.S., and an even more-dysfunctional bureaucracy. So if they can do it, we most certainly should be able to.

As to no longer having the capability of manufacturing such units... one might argue that opposition to projects like this one is part of the reason why. If we hadn't been so adamantly opposed to Industry In Our Own Back Yard, we might not be discussing moving the product of Someone Else's Industry through our back yard today.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:56 PM
 
5,792 posts, read 9,258,027 times
Reputation: 5988
The Idaho Supreme Court has given the go-ahead...but nothing is going to happen until Montana issues permits. Some very peculiar and hazardous conditions seem to follow from this ruling, at least according to the report.

Mega-loads get go-ahead from Idaho Supreme Court, but Montana permits still not issued | KLEW CBS 3 - News, Weather and Sports - Lewiston, ID - Lewiston, Idaho | Local & Regional
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: State of General Disarray
837 posts, read 1,279,475 times
Reputation: 1377
Update:

Montana, Idaho wait on each other to issue big rig permits

Curiouser and curiouser...
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,571,634 times
Reputation: 2952
The reason Montana "can't issue permits until we know they can legally be at our borders" is because if it were to prove an "illegal" (no permit) load, then you're kinda stuck with it -- it can't go back where it came from, yet it can't move forward. And that could mean a load sitting in the middle of the road (or more likely alongside the road -- we used to see this at state borders sometimes) for months. So... MT makes a correct decision here, in that MT has to know up front that the load is crossing Idaho legally.

As to what's going on in ID tho, it sounds like it's becoming a clash among would-be power brokers.
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Old 11-13-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: State of General Disarray
837 posts, read 1,279,475 times
Reputation: 1377
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous... what I wonder is, why ID would bother issuing permits as the article makes it sound like MT is not even close to doing so. And also because the opponents are going through an "administrative appeals process" Idaho issues oversized load permits, but stays shipments for now

The bureaucracy is mind-boggling... I keep thinking this story cannot possibly get any more complicated, and I keep being wrong.

I guess there's already snow on Lolo Pass, so I reckon nothing will be rolling 'til Spring, anyhow.
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