U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-14-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,544 posts, read 12,612,957 times
Reputation: 2954

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
I've got an old Gerber hunting knife that I have had for years. Its a sheath type, 5 inch blade. There is no model number or name on it, other than Gerber. Not even sure what steel is used, its dark gray in Colo. I absolutely love it.
Dark grey is how genuine carbon steel ends up if it ever touches anything oily. Does no harm, just isn't shiny.

I have an old combat knife that has gone grey like that (I found it in a gutter in Great Falls in 1965, and it had been laying there long enough that the grip had totally rotted away). It's dull as can be, try to cut your wrists and you'd just get blisters. Couple people have tried putting an edge on it and it just doesn't happen, grind all you want, it stays dull. But it slices through metal cans like butter, so I guess it can keep whatever edge it has.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-14-2015, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,544 posts, read 12,612,957 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Hahaha. No they cull based on breeding issues. With a closed system where they carefully introduce new stuff, they cull natural born so they won't have future breeding problems (freaks). They explained it once to me, a long time ago. They normally get 2 breeding seasons out of cow and by then, their first born 'could' be old enough to breed his mom, so if he hasn't been taken yet, they cull her. If she has female offspring, they keep her another year or until there is the possibility of inbreeding again. I don't mind the culls. hahaha
The common wisdom has always been that there's no inbreeding in nature, but when some university finally did DNA studies on various species (including deer and elk), they found on average the Coefficient of Inbreeding on wild animals is around .25 or a bit higher (do you REALLY think that old bull runs his daughters off? or their daughters either??) which is much higher than the average for domestic animals. This, of course, is why wild animals of a given species look so much alike, a contrast to their domestic cousins which tend to have a lot more variability.

For comparison, in dogs (which on average are more inbred than most domestic species, because they've been subject to more intensive selective breeding), working Labradors have among the highest COI of any breed, and it's only in the .10 to .18 range. Most purely-pet breeds have a COI under .03!!

Back some decades a researcher ran a very large breeding experiment -- he produced over 15,000 puppies -- which is a much larger sample than anyone before or since has had to work with. He did inbreedings and outcrosses across multiple generations, and tracked the results. And he found that once you cull out the initially-exposed genetic defects (ie. let natural selection do its job), the inbred colonies were consistently healthier and longer-lived than the outcross colonies. (Naturally, since you aren't constantly introducing new defects which any outcross will bring you.) And this has been exactly my experience with 14 generations of my own dogs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2015, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,474,664 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Multiple near-disasters and a long stint snowed in (we had to hire a tow truck to get the horse trailer out) but finally have a place... not ideal but good enough. Near Laurel. Damn, I'm almost back to North Dakota.
Man, don't even joke about living in ND. hahaha. Welcome back.
__________________
[B][COLOR="Red"]"No Copyrighted Material."[/COLOR][/B]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]CD Home page[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forumtos.html"][COLOR="seagreen"]TOS (Terms of Service)[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/107997-search-function-using-search-function.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]How to Search,[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]FAQ's[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/70589-guide-guide-city-data-posting.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Guide[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/wyoming/"]Wyoming[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/montana/"]Montana[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/north-dakota/"]North Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/south-dakota/"]South Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/guns-hunting/"]Guns and Hunting[/URL]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2015, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,544 posts, read 12,612,957 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Man, don't even joke about living in ND. hahaha. Welcome back.
You'da thunk they'da larned the first time, and locked the door
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2015, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,474,664 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
The common wisdom has always been that there's no inbreeding in nature, but when some university finally did DNA studies on various species (including deer and elk), they found on average the Coefficient of Inbreeding on wild animals is around .25 or a bit higher (do you REALLY think that old bull runs his daughters off? or their daughters either??) which is much higher than the average for domestic animals. This, of course, is why wild animals of a given species look so much alike, a contrast to their domestic cousins which tend to have a lot more variability.

For comparison, in dogs (which on average are more inbred than most domestic species, because they've been subject to more intensive selective breeding), working Labradors have among the highest COI of any breed, and it's only in the .10 to .18 range. Most purely-pet breeds have a COI under .03!!

Back some decades a researcher ran a very large breeding experiment -- he produced over 15,000 puppies -- which is a much larger sample than anyone before or since has had to work with. He did inbreedings and outcrosses across multiple generations, and tracked the results. And he found that once you cull out the initially-exposed genetic defects (ie. let natural selection do its job), the inbred colonies were consistently healthier and longer-lived than the outcross colonies. (Naturally, since you aren't constantly introducing new defects which any outcross will bring you.) And this has been exactly my experience with 14 generations of my own dogs.
I had a pretty lengthy discussion about their cull program, They've had this ranch going for decades. The problem they had was not with health, their critters were healthy. They had freaks. Bull Elk that had a 23x19 rack. By culling the way they do, they get more normal racks, but healthier racks. Almost every rack is a Books and Crocket record. Huge base, very tall and spread. Because it is a private organization, your racks, no matter how impressive, cannot be documented by any of the record keepers. So what they end up with is rich hunters after wall hangers

By the way, that Gerber knife was made dark gray, it didn't discolor to that. I mentioned it for identification, it has no model number or name, other than Gerber printed on it, but its the only hunting model that Gerber has, that is dark gray. Thought maybe somebody would know which one I was talking about. I talked to my son and he reminded me of how I come across it. For some reason, I couldn't find my good hunting knife and my son and I were headed out to get some deer. I just needed something to use for field dressing that day, so on the way out of town I stopped by Wally World. and grabbed that knife, because bit was under $20. Since then, I've come to appreciate it.
__________________
[B][COLOR="Red"]"No Copyrighted Material."[/COLOR][/B]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]CD Home page[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forumtos.html"][COLOR="seagreen"]TOS (Terms of Service)[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/107997-search-function-using-search-function.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]How to Search,[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]FAQ's[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/70589-guide-guide-city-data-posting.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Guide[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/wyoming/"]Wyoming[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/montana/"]Montana[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/north-dakota/"]North Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/south-dakota/"]South Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/guns-hunting/"]Guns and Hunting[/URL]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2015, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,544 posts, read 12,612,957 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
I had a pretty lengthy discussion about their cull program, They've had this ranch going for decades. The problem they had was not with health, their critters were healthy. They had freaks.
Chances are this is a side effect of a metabolic disorder, but might be the only visible effect. I'd guess there were also protein-related abnormalities in similar tissues, but nothing you could see without a microscope and a biochem laboratory (might be something as subtle as thicker hairshafts, or a buildup of some protein byproduct). Natural selection evidently selects against whatever is causing it, since we don't generally see such freaks in the wild. And the way we cull is not always how nature would cull, or they'd have never seen 'em in the first place. It's likely due to a single gene -- probably a recessive that has some effects in carriers, frex, bigger racks. Gimme enough detailed pedigrees, and I could tell ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
By the way, that Gerber knife was made dark gray, it didn't discolor to that.
Could have been treated to be that way before it left the factory. Likely they discovered that if you do it up front, the color is uniform and it won't change, and you won't get people complaining that their expensive high-carbon-steel shiny-new knife developed grey fingerprints everywhere they ever touched it and forgot to wipe it off.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2015, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,921 posts, read 5,810,997 times
Reputation: 8320
Gerber makes several knives with a dark annodized finish, some good some not so good. Most Gerbers are pretty good knives, but to hold an edge they need a higher carbon alloy.

Most modern knives are made from 1080 stainless, so they keep their shiny finish. Lately, with the survival craze, there is a push to more military style which means there is a demand for non reflective knives, so they use the annodized powder finish.

Gerber high carbon steel blades use a 440c alloy for the most part, but their spendier knives will use a vanadium alloy.



Stainless steel knives also don't work with flint for starting fires, so I'm starting to see more carbon steel again in the stores that will work with mag-sticks or Swedish matches.

I forge knives from high carbon spring steel, temper to wheat/straw and they hard as heck, I can't even drill them for pins to attach the handle, I have to hot punch them.

That first edge is difficult to get on, but once you get it, it stays sharp. I've gutted, skinned and cut up 2 antelope with one of my knives, and could still shave the hair off my arm when done.

Most modern knives are made of softer steels that are easy to sharpen, but they don't hold an edge for long.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,544 posts, read 12,612,957 times
Reputation: 2954
Yeah, I've seen some of those powder finish knives. Don't like the look, it's not at all similar to naturally darkened steel.

That's some serious forgin' there Do you get any problem with 'em getting brittle?

I've got a couple of crappy knives I use for cutting twine and such outdoors where the knife might get laid down and lost, they take an edge like a razor blade but don't hold it... strop 'em on a fence post and they're sharp again. Good use for a piece of utter junk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,921 posts, read 5,810,997 times
Reputation: 8320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post

That's some serious forgin' there Do you get any problem with 'em getting brittle?
Brittle happens when you quench, I use used oil instead of water as very hot steel when you quench creates bubbles of steam so there can be micropockets of super hard and soft causing stress in the dendrels, (crystaline structure of the metal).

For the kind of tempering I do, I heat the metal to critical, (so hot it loses it's magnatism), then let the fire completely cool with the steel in there. Do that 3 times. by allowing the superheated metal to cool slowly over a long period, the dendrels have time to completely form. Never had a problem with brittle doing it this way.

Most of the hand forged knives out there these days are annealed to blue for ease of working because it softens the metal, (if you've ever ground steel on a grinder and get it too hot, it starts turning blue. That is annealing and a softening of the metal), plus it has a nice blue color on the finished knife. I don't do art, I make tools, so I temper the He** out of it.

My knives are harder than any tool bit I've tried to use on them. Once tempered, the only way I can do anything with them is with a grinder. Files won't touch them.

I use spring steel for a couple reasons, but the biggest is because it's already an alloy that will flex under heavy stress without breaking.

Yeah, it's hard to work, but the finished product is superior to just about anything you will ever find.

I make a lot of different tools, draw knives, some specialty axes, other traditional tools as well. I started blacksmithing when I was still in high school, and started up again due to stress. (Fire and Steel, Loud noises, Smoke and Sweat are all very testosterone affirming ) and I hate going to the gym. I found out there is a pretty good market for this stuff. I thought about opening another side business, and offered to teach some kids how to blacksmith because I didn't have enough time to devote for more than a hobby so I thought if they wanted to learn it could turn into a career for them, but once they found out it was real work, they dissapeared.

I do some orders, especially for people that want customized stuff, but on a limited basis depending on how much time I have.
I sold 12 knives and some of my survival kits, (which include a custom high carbon steel knife) for Christmas this year.

Made enough to pay for some nice presents
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,474,664 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Mine looks just like the knife pictured but not orange and not serated. I absolutely hate serated knives. Let me put it this way, when in wally world, it was the only Gerber they had, that was gray.

Your knives sound fantastic.

There is an old coote in Sheridan that builds custom knives. He measures arm length, size of hand, etc, and the gets an idea of what you are going to use it for, and then builds something specifically for you. Years ago, when sawmills were going out, he went around and rounded up all of the 6 and 8 ft saw blades. That is what he makes blades with. No idea on what kind of steel it is, but everybody that has one of Fred's knives, raves about the edge and how well it holds. I met Fred back in 93 and at that time he had over 45 saw blades standing in his garage and he was still finding them somewhere.
__________________
[B][COLOR="Red"]"No Copyrighted Material."[/COLOR][/B]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]CD Home page[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forumtos.html"][COLOR="seagreen"]TOS (Terms of Service)[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/107997-search-function-using-search-function.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]How to Search,[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]FAQ's[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/70589-guide-guide-city-data-posting.html"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Guide[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/wyoming/"]Wyoming[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/montana/"]Montana[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/north-dakota/"]North Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/south-dakota/"]South Dakota[/URL], [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/guns-hunting/"]Guns and Hunting[/URL]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top