those interested in moving here should read (Billings, Missoula: mortgage, transplants)

[jimj]

Every place I've lived across this country had some type of this sentiment. It's not new and the one thing I've noticed in all of the places is that it was a waste of energy and blood pressure not to mention most times counter productive. No matter how much people are insulted or told not to come they will come and how they are greeted will determine if they are willing to listen to what those already here have to say or just get obstinate and tune them out. It's your choice to make.
Time is much better spent trying to get the powers that be to PLAN for the influx of newcomers so our world hopefully isn't turned upside down as bad. Life is going to change and so is the world and yes, jerky people are going to come here as well as the good ones just like everywhere else. Thankfully there is still a lot of open space that can absorb more people until hopefully more sane people are in charge.

[Anchorless]

You create action by stirring up ideas.

You stir up ideas by having a discussion.


This isn't wasted energy or fruitless banter just because it doesn't jive with your perspective. The question is - why do you spend so much effort trying to quiet people, or deter them from having this discussion?

[jenzebel]

Anchorless and Mark6052, you both express it well.

One of our founding principles in this country is freedom of speech, yet some people only seem to support that situationally--that is, as long as you don't say something they don't want to hear, they will support your freedom of speech.

I stumbled onto this forum quite a while ago, felt compelled to post the truth because others were painting a picture of Montana that was overly rosy and not realistic and have been personally attacked over and over for stating that I don't want this out-of-control growth to continue in Montana.

Some people on this forum have even hinted that I am a communist for my views or that my opinions are un-American. They point to the fact that they are Americans and can move wherever they want and/or they deserve to live here if they want because they or their relatives fought for this country, etc.

Guess what, my relatives and ancestors fought for this country too. Some of my Native American ancestors were defeated and forced westward continually until they could go no further. I have European ancestors that have been in this country since long before the American Revolution and have fought in every major war to defend this country.

So to all of you that want to move to Montana who are telling me I should either get used to the growth or leave and go somewhere else if I don't like it because you have right to move here, I say--I have rights too. My ancestors fought for this country as well giving me the same right to freedom, freedom to say I don't want you to move here and I don't want Montana's culture and environment to end up like southern California or Florida or wherever. Simple as that. It is nothing personal. I've been to every state on extended road trips (except for Hawaii) so I've seen with my own eyes what some of the areas you want to flee are like. I don't want that here. And no matter what you tell me--like planning for the growth will prevent Montana from becoming another California or that individually you are not part of the problem, I know better. Some of you may have the best of intentions but the fact remains that the very act of you moving here will change my home. And for some reason, you don't feel that I have a right to be upset about that.

It amazes me that if we, as a country went into another country, say France--moved there in droves, told them that they weren't doing things right because they weren't the United States, turned their economy upside down so that the natives couldn't buy an affordable home, brought with us an increased need for additional services and more infrastructure, an increase in property taxes to support more people/services, etc.--we would be considered by most of the world, and many in our country, as immoral at worst, amoral at best. Yet that is what is happening in Montana, and somehow--it is okay?

A number of people have responded to me in this forum with statements like, "How do you think the Natives Americans felt when the Europeans destroyed their culture", in affect to tell me that if I am White, not Native American, then I automatically share the blame for the travesty dealt upon Native American cultures, regardless of whether I had any ancestors directly involved with it. Further they feel that unless I am Native American, I have no right to my opinion about people moving to Montana.

For those of you that have used the above logic on me you have incorrectly lumped me into the category of "person descended from European ancestors responsible for culture genocide that destroyed Native cultures". First I part Native American, second, ancestors I've researched in my family were supportive of Native cultures. How dare you blame me for something I had no part in.

Interestingly enough, even though you feel justified lumping me into a category, you don't want me to lump all newcomers to Montana into the same "bad for Montana" category. Funny how according to some of you, I am responsible for some unknown ancestral sins over which I had no control, yet you are here and directly participating in destroying Montana by moving here--but it is not your fault. How convenient. Cultural genocide is occurring now, within our own country, in Montana, and for some reason, many of you make excuses to justify it or try to fog the issue by trying to use "ancestor guilt trips". Do you feel it is somehow right for people to come from a culture, urban California for example, and destroy another culture, rural Montana, just because you are a citizen of the same country? Does it somehow eliminate any moral implication of your actions?

[Anchorless]

Of course they're not going to have the same perspective as you, and they're going to scramble for rationalizations to justify what they want to do - move.

There is a long and storied tradition of state isolationism in the US - the south during the Civil War, Texas' attempt to secede, Oregon's land use and growth plan during the late '70's and '80's, and the entire matter of Federalism in the Constitution. There is historical basis for a state or region wanting to be somewhat autonomous.

I've expressed this same idea in so many ways and have been the usual refrain of "we're all Americans" or "its my Constitutional right to move anywhere I want," "it's progress and its good for the state," the "why is it okay for you to move there but not me," and the crafty "I just want to fit in and be Montana/Idaho/Colorado/etc. is, and have some peace and quiet."

These are all legitimate points - and no one is saying that you're a bad person for wanting to move from A to B - but it sidesteps the larger issue of class migration.

I am worried about growth, but these states can handle a normal influx of growth. What they cannot handle - and what is destroying the quality of life in these states - is the rampant development, sprawl, and blight that is centered around our natural areas (mountains, rivers, lakes, and forests), and is being catered towards those with higher incomes than the region currently supports. And what happens is that you create a more disparaged class system, and phase out the middle class. The rich and upper middle class have created an exclusive hamlet and playground for themselves in the coasts, mountains, lakes, forests, and rivers, and have pushed the lower middle class to migrate further inland in search of affordable housing. And in the places the middle class has fled is left with a stratified upper and rich class, and a poverty class (that now has to live on government assistance).

This, among all of the other concerns that us "communists" and "NIMBY's" have voiced over and over again.

But of course people assume they're not part of the problem - how can one person or one family do that much damage? They don't - it's just that there isn't just one person or one family, but it's a critical mass of individuals and families, and it doesn't stop until the place they're moving becomes a) too expensive itself, b) rife with traffic, air, and crime problems that rivals the place they left, c) an interesting sea of roofs, suburbia, retail, and pavement.

And yeah, we're the crazy ones. But the sad thing is - I can't blame them for wanting to move out.

[Dolphindude]

Why are people in Montana so ornery.
I ask this most sincerely.
My mother is a native Montanan. My dad went to UM, met my mom and they moved back to Connecticut. Most of my mom's very large family still lives in Montana. They are some of the most unfriendly people I know. My own relatives. Ha.

[rickers]

This whole thread is a bit ridiculus. I'm from California and have never made any attempt to hide this fact. I've lived in Montana for ten years and have never had a bit of trouble from anyone. In fact I've lived in six different states and everyone has been wonderful everywhere I've ever been except where I grew up in San Diego.

[jimj]

More to the point, nothing written in this thread will change anything one iota, but maybe it's good to let people vent.
You will never convince the people that want to slam the door since they have theirs that growth can be good and not all who move here are bad just as you won't ever convince people not to build on every square inch of open land it they get the chance.
I guess at least people here will get it off their chests and feel better which is a good thing......

[Anchorless]

Originally Posted by jimj

More to the point, nothing written in this thread will change anything one iota, but maybe it's good to let people vent.
You will never convince the people that want to slam the door since they have theirs that growth can be good and not all who move here are bad just as you won't ever convince people not to build on every square inch of open land it they get the chance.
I guess at least people here will get it off their chests and feel better which is a good thing......

So wait - you tell us that we should get out and do something about it, but then you insinuate that it isn't ever going to matter anyway?

Furthermore you make the assumption that we don't carry this same attitude in the real world, and do real things to try and make real change.

I honestly don't see why you're so antagonistic to people like us - so why belittle us and assume that our tiny little voices aren't to be heard in the big scary world?

[jenzebel]

Originally Posted by Anchorless

....There is a long and storied tradition of state isolationism in the US - the south during the Civil War, Texas' attempt to secede, Oregon's land use and growth plan during the late '70's and '80's, and the entire matter of Federalism in the Constitution. There is historical basis for a state or region wanting to be somewhat autonomous.

Exactly. In fact California has that as part of its legacy because its government attempted to stop people who migrated out of the dust bowl from entering the state.

Originally Posted by Anchorless

I am worried about growth, but these states can handle a normal influx of growth. What they cannot handle - and what is destroying the quality of life in these states - is the rampant development, sprawl, and blight that is centered around our natural areas (mountains, rivers, lakes, and forests), and is being catered towards those with higher incomes than the region currently supports.
And what happens is that you create a more disparaged class system, and phase out the middle class. The rich and upper middle class have created an exclusive hamlet and playground for themselves in the coasts, mountains, lakes, forests, and rivers, and have pushed the lower middle class to migrate further inland in search of affordable housing. And in the places the middle class has fled is left with a stratified upper and rich class, and a poverty class (that now has to live on government assistance).

Right again. I've seen people moving into Montana all along without creating problems. I started noticing a change in the late 80's, early 90's as immigration into Montana became more than a trickle, and each year has gotten worse. Once the rich and famous discovered us, it seems the rest wanted to come.

It certainly doesn't help that we are losing our middle class. A number of economists believe we are in another gilded age, with a huge spread between the haves and have nots and an super wealthy elite class controlling the politics and society. It sure looks that way to me.

I just abhor reading some of the incorrect and misleading information I see in this forum. Therefore, I feel it my duty to let people know that the grass ain't always as green as you think here in Montana. Some on this forum would want others to believe that the situation here in Montana is just peachy when actually, we have plenty of problems too.

Nowhere have I seen professional and skilled trade salaries so low. People quote figures for low unemployment rates in Montana and I just have to laugh because sure they are low, that is what happens when so many people have to work two jobs just to live here. So we have a proliferation of low-paying service type jobs. Whoopee.

High crime is another reason people give for leaving their own areas and moving here. If someone actually does the research, they would find that Montana is nowhere near the bottom in crime rates per 100,000 people, the New England states are much lower. If you want safety, move to North Dakota, they were 50th according to the latest FBI stats. Even states like Wisconsin and Minnesota ranked lower than Montana. In addition, I would bet we also have a higher percentage/population, of sexual and dangerous offenders living in our neighborhoods.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Anchorless

So wait - you tell us that we should get out and do something about it, but then you insinuate that it isn't ever going to matter anyway?

Furthermore you make the assumption that we don't carry this same attitude in the real world, and do real things to try and make real change.

I honestly don't see why you're so antagonistic to people like us - so why belittle us and assume that our tiny little voices aren't to be heard in the big scary world?

If the current situation bothers you certainly you should do something and I've never said otherwise but there is a way to do something and a way not to IMO. Being antagonistic or presenting an overly negative view or insulting people from other states on this or any other forum to people who are interested in moving here will acomplish nothing more except to alienate them before they move here and make them close their minds further. The way anyone affects change is with the people who decide where and how people will live, that would be the city and county government. There have been quite a few changes in the flathead caused by concerned people going to meetings and protesting what is going on.
That's all I'm saying, use your power in the place where it will make the most difference....