those interested in moving here should read (Bozeman: income, work)

[jimj]

Originally Posted by jenzebel

Nowhere have I seen professional and skilled trade salaries so low. People quote figures for low unemployment rates in Montana and I just have to laugh because sure they are low, that is what happens when so many people have to work two jobs just to live here. So we have a proliferation of low-paying service type jobs. Whoopee.

High crime is another reason people give for leaving their own areas and moving here. If someone actually does the research, they would find that Montana is nowhere near the bottom in crime rates per 100,000 people, the New England states are much lower. If you want safety, move to North Dakota, they were 50th according to the latest FBI stats. Even states like Wisconsin and Minnesota ranked lower than Montana. In addition, I would bet we also have a higher percentage/population, of sexual and dangerous offenders living in our neighborhoods.

Quite true jenz, salaries are low (but rising sloooowly) and there is a real lack of large companies or at least good sized manufacturing companies here to create a decent tax base and take some of the load off the people. I lay this at the feet of our wonderful government. All I've heard since I've been here is how business unfriendly this state is and it seems they are quite content to raise their budget money from taxing the landowners and workers to death.
A large subdivision does not generate near the tax revenue that a good sized manufacturer does not to mention that subdivision doesn't generate as much income for people to spend at the local level so I don't get why they are so anti-business.

As for crime, those stats are kind of misleading since they have to do with population density which is hard to apply here. I look at hard crime when I look at where to live, things like murder,rape,armed robbery,car jacking and the like not at how many car stereos have been stolen in a city.
I don't really look at property crimes unless it's really prolific since property crime happens everywhere and crooks generally commute to other neighborhoods to commit that type of crime.
If let's say Missoula had 2 murders last year while I wouldn't be pleased that people died it wouldn't seem like that high of a rate when you take into account how big of an area you are talking about and how many temporary residents are there at any given time.

[jenzebel]

JimJ

I agree with you on subdivisions not generating much income and therefore not benefiting the community. I remember when the economy was humming along when we were still cutting timber here and would rather see logging than subdivisions.

One thing I think hurts our state is our high tax on fuel. It is ridiculous. I drove to the east coast and back and we in Montana have some of the highest fuel prices in the nation.

[BLUE STATER]

I read this thread with interest as I am a Minnesotan, liberal, politically active.. and moving to MT. My first thought is: dont flatter yourself Montanans. Im not moving to escape anything in my state that is "ruined". Minnesota is perenially at the top for quality of life, literacy, health. Im proud to be from MN and think our DFL politics is the reason for our high quality of life. Do I want to come to MT and impose this on you? Not necessarily. I respect your way of life and understand what works for some folks doesnt work for others. But I will say this, instead of xenophobia, maybe try tolerance. There are plenty of people from "blue states" that would be an asset to MT. Embrace them and we will move forward together. The only thing tougher than change is resisting it.

[Reziac]

I lived in Minnesota as a kid, primarily in Moorhead. Back in the early 1960s, MN was a lot like Montana -- you had cities and towns, and you had rural, but there wasn't any sprawl. Driving from Moorhead to Detroit Lakes, there two small towns and a few little hamlets, and a lot of farms and open country, but no subdivisions and no subdivisions posing as "ranchettes". We lived on 19th St. in Moorhead (just across the tracks from the artesian wells), and we were on the very last block of houses at the east edge of town.

When I was last through there in 1972, Hwy 10 was solid houses all the way from Moorhead to Glyndon, and with clumps of subdivisions all along the way to Detroit Lakes. When I look at a satellite map of the area today, I see that Moorhead has eaten Dilworth entirely... given that they started as smaller towns, that's the equivalent of Bozeman reaching out and eating Belgrade.

Yeah, growth happens, but what happens to the people who willy-nilly get grown over the top of?? Don't we count too?? Don't we have a voice in our own future...??

...Evidently not.

[Gulskjegg]

The Balkanization of America is complete. The economy is virtually dead. The dollar has plunged in value by 50+%. The housing bubble has popped. Banks are failing. The "Great Depression II" will last a generation.

[JoeJoeMan]

Hummmm......if the popping of the housing bubble and subprime mortgage crashes the economy and as such stops this wanton growth...well the would be a very welcome change........there is good and bad in everything

[rickers]

I don't know what America Gulskjegg is talking about but he can't be referring to our county (Sanders) We had a good hay year and the rock quarries that have sprung up all over this area has really pumped up the economy. Cost of living is still low here and wages are fair. Unless you are unskilled or inexperienced it's easy to get an ok job and live very nicely here.

[JoeJoeMan]

ricker wrote:

I don't know what America Gulskjegg is talking about but he can't be referring to our county (Sanders) We had a good hay year and the rock quarries that have sprung up all over this area has really pumped up the economy. Cost of living is still low here and wages are fair. Unless you are unskilled or inexperienced it's easy to get an ok job and live very nicely here.

Oh really.........we must be living in two different Montanas, where is your's so we can all come there

[jimj]

I don't know if it's as doom and gloom as a dead economy or that this current mortgage company failure will stop growth. The current state of affairs in the finance market is concerning to say the least but I don't think that the fed will allow it to implode. Is there pain on the horizon? Surely, for some. Will the government allow potentially 7 million homes to forclose? Not if any of them want to be re-elected or elected to any office at all. People that get thrown out of their houses will have a long memory I bet.....
The sky is not falling, dusty maybe, cracking possibely but falling? Not yet......

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by jimj

I don't know if it's as doom and gloom as a dead economy or that this current mortgage company failure will stop growth. The current state of affairs in the finance market is concerning to say the least but I don't think that the fed will allow it to implode. Is there pain on the horizon? Surely, for some. Will the government allow potentially 7 million homes to forclose? Not if any of them want to be re-elected or elected to any office at all. People that get thrown out of their houses will have a long memory I bet.....
The sky is not falling, dusty maybe, cracking possibely but falling? Not yet......

The boom here "will end".

85% of those who built here over the past 8 years will leave us.
The writing has been on the wall since early 2005....
I mentioned in previous posts that this boom will not last much longer.

Soon, we here in Montana will be returning to the drudgery that the poor economics of the 80's had brought us.

I've seen this sort of thing happen here before, it's nothing new.
We'll tough it out, just like we always do, and life will go on.

Only the fittest of transplants among us will stay to raise the newest stock of native Montanans. These first genration Montanan's will grow up, flee us for college or money or both, only to return home to raise their own little Montanan's... this is the way it works around here.

Montana cities of any consequential size will survive, only if they have sustainable industries. These would be our fair cities in the east, namely Billings, Great Falls, Helena and possibly Bozeman (because Bozeman was smart enough to attract internet related industries).

Out of 100% of those who move here during the boom times, 15% stay when the boom is over.... all of the others leave. Then, 20 or 30 years down the road, the whole process starts all over again. We here in Montana will get another large infusion of cash for 15 or so years, and then it will be all over again....... It's a cycle that's been going on since Montana was a part of the Dakota Territory. It's a cycle that is not likely to change.