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Old 05-09-2011, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
17,643 posts, read 22,118,757 times
Reputation: 10746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Griz View Post
....................has this Thread Topic been derailed......."do you think"?
hahaha It was getting close, wasn't it?

I do have to say, that if enough people move into the state that truely believe you cannot discipline your children, it's going to be a real problem for future generations.

My daughter once asked me if Grandpa ever gave me a spanking. I said, "Nope, I earned every one of them."

I was raised in the 50's and 60's. Skip ahead 20 years to the next generation and they are the ones wanting to move to a state and then make the state what they want it to be. Then the question is, why didn't you fix the one you was in if change was all it took?

There is a great heritage in Montana and the people, regardless if they are "Native to Montana" or not. Some people move to Montana because that's the way they always wanted to live. They will succeed and are welcomed by most everybody. Then there are those that move because that's close to what they want and once they get there decide nobody should follow and we'll just put in a convenance, and now shut off future building, let's close that road, people don't need to hunt close to my property, and by the way, could somebody direct me to the nearest Starbucks? They ain't going to make it as smoothly as the first group.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 5,562,243 times
Reputation: 9193
Griz and ElkHunter, I LOVE you guys!
Seriously...
It isn't just Montana and Colorado, it is Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, South Dakota, North Dakota, and Nebraska too... all the states that 20 years ago no one gave a dang about, that now are suddenly Mecca for those who want to make them like everywhere else, or a place to come because they think that they "might" like it, "might" find a job, "might" have a home. After all it is so cheap to live there!

We moved to Nebraska after 3 years of research and exploration of this and other states. We didn't come here to change things, we came here because it was beautiful, the people were wonderful, and we wanted to do our own thing and not bother anyone, or be bothered. We are blissfully happy. We refuse to get involved in the politics. We are working very hard on our own property and doing what we love, creating our little farm, rebuilding the 100 year old farmhouse (we stripped off the metal siding and made it look like it did when it was first built!), providing eggs to our neighbors, vegetables, and soon fruits. There was no small-engine repair shop here or woodworking shop til DH started helping people. We do it because we love it, and we do it cheap because they can't afford to drive 150 miles to find someone.

Yet everyone and his brother now seem to want to move, to find Heaven - and then to make it into their own image! And when you tell them what to expect, honestly and frankly, they get mad and resentful!

Yup, we are newbies, but we came to fit in, not to take from or "show them how".
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,870 posts, read 5,031,832 times
Reputation: 3185
My good friend has a large dairy farm in WI and he has a similar proublem as the city has expanded and there is now a subdivision along his pasture he turns out his cows in.

They did try the "your cows stink" "to much noise" crap with him.
This resulted in him moving his beef cows to the pasture so their are cows in it 24/7.

What saved him AG zoning and he was there first (grandfathered in)

I agree newbies can pose a proublem when they move in not knowing where they are living.

But this subdivision would not be happening if a rancher didn't sell.

I know about all the problems facing ranching.
land cost have sky rocketed so now a rancher has to pay more tax and sometime it is more lucrative to sell it than work it.

The high inheritance taxes and not being to hand down the ranch to the next generation with out being taxed again.


I own land in MN that is zoned allowing me to have a "Hobby farm". I but up to homes that are not and have had complaints about noise. I just file them in the trash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
When they move in next door to my ag operation that's been there for decades, and complain nonstop about those stinky cows, til they get me shut down? Yeah, then I care. They've just threatened my livelihood, never mind my way of life.

That kind of thing happens a lot more than you might think. It can be the final straw and the over-the-top expense that kills a struggling business (and most ag is struggling in today's market).
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,870 posts, read 5,031,832 times
Reputation: 3185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Rez is spot on. Let me ask some questions.

Was it long time residents in Montana that shut down logging? Nope. Long time Residents knew that thinning the forest kept the forest healthier and reduced the fire hazard. But out of state people moved in and said, "Don't touch the trees on the pretty mountains around me, you'll ruin my view." Wonder just how many jobs were lost on that? How's the price of lumber now that most lumber comes from Canada?

Same in MN logging is down.

Was it long time residents in Montana that stopped wolf hunting? Nope. It was special interest groups from OUT OF STATE that decided they knew more about Montana's habitat, elk feeding, ranching with cattle and sheep and determined that the pretty wolf should be left alone and not managed by the people that saw the wolves destroy the habitat of other animals. The residents come up with a number they could live with, they didn't want to eradicate the wolves, just manage their numbers in ranch areas. But being residents that have lived there for decades, makes them stupid and they don't know what's good for them. It's much better to have somebody observe after 2 days in a motel and a rental car determine what's good for the state.

We/I have wolfs on my property now and then and if they are close to our animals they get high speed lead poising.
Govt. protection or not.

In MN the wolfs have recently been removed from the endangered list as they are roaming all over the northern half of the state and are killing livestock & domestic
animals.

How's the coal mining in Montana? Used to open a pit, take out the coal, then reclaim the land to 95% of what it looked like originally. Everybody needs coal, but today, new residents don't want a mine opened up because it ruins their view.

We have large open mine pits (Iron Ore) like your coal pits and they are expanding the mining. Yea, the greenes are in a up roar but we don't care. iron ore is the life blood of Northern MN

Do people think that the gangs in Helena, Great Falls, Billings, etc... were long term Montana residents that got bored and decided they were tired of following the law?

Proudly not, just like us they came from a different area. Ours want-a-be-gangsters come from Chicago.

Wonder if anybody has any idea of the count of homes that were built so that somebody could use them for 2 weeks every year, but demand that residents around them pay to have an access road built and maintained 365 days a year. They visit for 3 days during Christmas and raise hell because their 8 mile long county road wasn't plowed and free of snow.

Our northern lakes are ringed with vacation homes too.

It's just "little things" like this that have people in Montana upset.

It's special interest groups from out of state that want those big Wind Farms because they think Montana should go green. But none of those special interest groups want the power trunk lines run through their property, or even near their property. It seems that special interest groups know what's best for "Everybody else".
We have the "NO line" debates too and we have wind farms that are build in the path of migrating ducks and geese. They really are hard on the hawks too.

It's just "little things" like this that have people in Minnesota so upset.

Our problems are not that much different.

Do you have large group or refugees moving to MT as we do in MN?.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
6,432 posts, read 7,321,893 times
Reputation: 1965
The problem is that these out-of-state radical greenies come armed with deep pockets and ambitious lawyers, and if they can't harrass you out of business with complaints to the local goverment, they'll sue you into oblivion. I guarantee their lawyer will outfight your bank account. And it won't matter if you've been there since forever and are zoned for it and are actually not bothering anyone outside of your original sphere of influence, which they moved INTO. The U.S. civil court system lets anyone sue anyone for any reason, and if you don't defend yourself, you lose by default. If you do defend yourself, well, they can come armed with a bunch of neighbours who don't understand your business and never noticed it before, or are new to the area and had no idea that cows stink, but are all suddenly upset about it.

That's why there used to be three rendering plants in Billings, and now there's none. Where are those carcasses being processed now? I can tell you where... Mexico. And because of regulations on what can be done with the output, know where it's being processed into dog food and fertilizer? Thailand. (Yes, 100% of the output of the remaining renderers in Calif. goes to Thailand. I've asked every bloody one of 'em. If I want meat meal, I have to ship it by the truckload from Spokane, which ain't real practical.)

This is why there's a feed mill for sale in north-central Montana for the whopping price of $60,000, when it's probably worth 10 or 20 times that if it were still in business, making feed to sell to Montana grower and finisher operations. Oh wait, where are those operations now??

What kind of jobs did those workers get once that 'demeaning' blue-collar factory job died? Flippin' burgers somewhere? Seasonal maid work up at Swan Lake? Cuz that's where MOST of the "service" jobs really are... only one person can own that burger joint or that maid service; like anything else, the service industry is a few chiefs and a lot of indians. And consider, if everyone is a doctor or an accountant, who grows their food and digs their ditches?
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,870 posts, read 5,031,832 times
Reputation: 3185
When you get sued, you file your counter suite and when you win you get your court costs and you can recover any other costs associated with it also.

Most will be found to be frivolous, and a good or decent lawyer will advise ageist suing in these instances.
AG zoning and who was there first play a big role.

We have been their and done that,(sued because or our animals, noise smell)
It may happen to someone else but in most cases if you get sued over something like this it's a one time thing.

Once you win it will be even more difficult for someone else to win as a president has been set.


As for your plant going to Mexico I bet NAFTA and fewer regulations had more to do with than the stink did.

Times are getting tough every where.
folks are moving out and to every state.



Next, as a Montanan you must support the Constitution, right?

You know where I'm heading.

You can't have it both ways but I do understand your being protective to what you see as a threat to your life style.

Folks are moving out of MT and folk are moving in.
It's the same everywhere.

Like you, I will not let someone bully me into doing or not doing what I choose to do or where I live.

but as I said I like seeing people who are passionate about their state and life stye sticking up for it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
The problem is that these out-of-state radical greenies come armed with deep pockets and ambitious lawyers, and if they can't harrass you out of business with complaints to the local goverment, they'll sue you into oblivion. I guarantee their lawyer will outfight your bank account. And it won't matter if you've been there since forever and are zoned for it and are actually not bothering anyone outside of your original sphere of influence, which they moved INTO. The U.S. civil court system lets anyone sue anyone for any reason, and if you don't defend yourself, you lose by default. If you do defend yourself, well, they can come armed with a bunch of neighbours who don't understand your business and never noticed it before, or are new to the area and had no idea that cows stink, but are all suddenly upset about it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Montana
442 posts, read 544,899 times
Reputation: 235
A big gigantic AMEN to Rez and MTSilvertip !!! I had some more thoughts but due to chickens out of pen just lost it...duh
The big money buys up land and water access and keeps people from going fishing and hunting to protect the little wild life that needs harvested. What's the song? " Don't go changing, rearranging...." Adapt to the way of life that draws you here or GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: MT/35 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
1,369 posts, read 1,464,813 times
Reputation: 1699
Default Bozeman area/out-of-state-money effect. Good for some/bad for others. God help the "little guy!

Here's some more "Good News" for Bozeman.........and some people wonder why there just might be some justification for the negative feelings toward (fill in the blank--state name--________) and a common philosophy of: "Stay in CA with all your money; CA ideas; etc,etc."

Rob Schumacher [a CA based R.E. developer]just bought the (bankrupt) "Black Bull Run" subdivision and golf resort (west of Bozeman)t for 8.1 million. Schumacher owns other property in Bozeman and his sister Sally Uhlmann is a "major R.E. power" in Bozeman area.
This property was formerly "The Leachman Angus Ranch" (Note: I harvested a 34" inside spread Mule Deer on this ranch land back in 1969.....sad, sad, sad!)

CrossHarbor Capital Partners (Calif) is doing the financing for Schumacher (They're the same company that recently bought the "Big Sky Yellowstone Club" (that was in receivership)...........Do we see a pattern here

The appraised value of this property (14 months ago) was almost 18 million.(Kinda looks like Schumacher "got-a-hellava-deal, hummmm)
Of the 378 lots....64 have been sold. The original homes (only 8 were built) the cost was between 1.2 & 1.4 million EACH. The home prices for the (yet to be built homes) has been dropped down to approx 600,000 each.

There are approx 260 Golf Memberships available for purchase.......(God knows what they want for them).

Well, that's it boys & girls..........another chapter in the book: "What happened to "THE LAST BEST PLACE?"
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
6,432 posts, read 7,321,893 times
Reputation: 1965
<goes off, looks it up>

California developer buys Bozeman subdivision
Quote:
In March, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Ralph Kirsher approved the sale of the development to the highest bidder. The first $1.2 million paid for construction liens, with the rest going to the bank. Black bull owed OneWest more than $31 million, the Chronicle reported.
Now, where do you think that $31 million comes from? I'll tell you. It comes from YOU. Ultimately someone has to pick up that slack, and that'll be in the form of higher interest rates, higher prices trickling down to other goods and services, fewer jobs, more failed businesses that were counting on being paid by this outfit and now probably won't be, given the line out the Chapter 7 door probably goes round the block.
Quote:
Black Bull has sold 115 of its 376 golf memberships. Because the golf course was closed last summer due to the bankruptcy, Barnett said members will get free access this season.

Schumacher said Black Bull plans to build an outdoor pool and exercise facility and three less-expensive model homes. The new 1,800-square-foot to 2,500-square-foot "club homes" will sell for up to $600,000, about half the cost of other homes.

The development has sold 64 of its 378 lots, Schumacher said.
And how many Montanans could afford to buy such luxury accomodations in the first place? Well, I guess it doesn't matter, cuz Montanans whose jobs got killed by that $31M debt are gonna be workin' as those folks' cooks, maids, and gardeners. Until the illegals discover that new market, anyway.

Last edited by Reziac; 05-10-2011 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:11 PM
 
Location: MT/35 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
1,369 posts, read 1,464,813 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
.......................don't trust my sources....huh?

My source: I have a retired attorney friend that was my neighbor back in Colorado in the 1960s. He has lived in Bozeman for over 50 years. He was in the field of "R.E. law" and "Water Law" for approx 40 years......I trust him..... and take any info received from him as being factual and correct. He has a proven track record and is highly respected in the Bozeman area........ and he has "no-ax-to-grind"..............................
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