Reality Check (Helena, Boulder: smog, hoa, mcmansions)

[mark6052]

JJM it aint braggin if you can back it up. nuff said on that. GSG, good post, Bronc riders rule! There is a spirit in this land that many dont understand and its as simple as how we treat a stranger. But I have noticed a more guarded feel by many. but I guess that comes from all the new unknowns, and things that some newbies have done. Thats life here now.

[JoeJoeMan]

Mark6052 Wrote:

JJM it aint braggin if you can back it up.

It's my experience in life (and I'm sure others too) that any guy who tries to convey the message of how tough he is.......ain't !
And please take this in a light hearted spirit.

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

Mark6052 Wrote:


It's my experience in life (and I'm sure others too) that any guy who tries to convey the message of how tough he is.......ain't !
And please take this in a light hearted spirit.

heh heh.... And you probably already know that we're all ten foot tall and bullet proof..... heh heh....

[mark6052]

Its good for you to keep it light hearted, just in case. lol back on topic... so people should only move to montana as a last resort? only if you have family, etc. you said you pay property taxes by paying rent, ok. that doesnt amount to very much. whos gonna pay the rest, the rest of the weekly wage workers? I think the people buying the 10mil dollar ranches pay alot more. and many of those are out of state owners. I happen to know afew. your fishing and hunting area has shrunk? One out of state hunter pays more in one trip than you ever will. guess whos gonna control it all. Its the old golden rule, "who ever has the gold rules" I go asking permission from many folks, dont like to but thats the way it is, get used to it. OOps theres that piece of life comin at ya. enjoy it while you can.

[JoeJoeMan]

Mark wrote:

Its good for you to keep it light hearted, just in case. lol back on topic... so people should only move to montana as a last resort? only if you have family, etc. you said you pay property taxes by paying rent, ok. that doesnt amount to very much. whos gonna pay the rest, the rest of the weekly wage workers? I think the people buying the 10mil dollar ranches pay alot more. and many of those are out of state owners. I happen to know afew. your fishing and hunting area has shrunk? One out of state hunter pays more in one trip than you ever will. guess whos gonna control it all. Its the old golden rule, "who ever has the gold rules" I go asking permission from many folks, dont like to but thats the way it is, get used to it. OOps theres that piece of life comin at ya. enjoy it while you can.

Yea, cool, let's keep it light heared.
Well I don't just pay my property tax thru my rent, but I pay my income taxes too....which as far as I'm concerned amounts to 'very much'.
As far as people paying taxes on a 10 mil ranch, I can't say what they pay in taxes, I don't know, If they are smart they set their ranch up in such a way as to avoid taxes, you know as a business, a working ranch losing money, or as a retreat for their other business, there are ways to do it, and they're stupid if they didn't do that.
Anyway, we seemed to have done alright with our tax base for a hundred years with out them, infact some would argue we did better, for example look at the cost of a college eduaction at our universites they use to be significantly less before this so called influx of 10mil ranch tax money we are supposedly getting.
Yea, more people, more houses, more taxes, but you gotta build and maintain, more roads, more schools, more jails, dah dah dah, but why do I have to explain this, isn't it obvious ?
And who cares what outta' state hunters or fisherman pay, I don't and I'm sure you don't see any great beneifit from any money they contribute to tax base, so why tout their virtue.
We've always had guides etc, that made money from sportsman, now we have a bunch of outta' state guides moving in to compete with the old local guides and they bring in a bunch of new clients and crowd up the rivers and hunting grounds.....I'm not seeing the logic in why this is any good for the state.
But I'm sure you have a vested interest in perpetuating this growth thing. Actually I don't see the difference in tearing up a piece of land to make a golf course, housing development, strip mall, or what have you any more justify- able than the clearcutting of our forests year ago, a reprehensable act indeed. At least the clearcuts are growing back.
In Montana, as you may know there is a tradition of looking back and cursing our faults for allowing those so-and-so's to come in here and do their dirty business, piliaging and leaving us to deal with it. And the money and benifit it may have produced for the common folk is all long gone and forgotten. And ol' local Bud Jones is left standing on the river bank saying "gee I use to catch lots of trout here" or "Say I remember when we use to hunt all this land"
Yea but like you said "that's the way it is, so get use to it"......
What do we as a society lament today, today as we speak ? Do we lament....the fact that we didn't build enough malls, condos, golf courses or is it that we miss that small town life and fishing in our backyards with grandpa ?
I have a better idea.........why don't you 'growth' people "get use to it", get use to the fact that alot of people like myself see you and your behavior and ideas as reprehensible. Seems like an even trade we get use to you ruining our way of life and you get use to us looking at you as the cause of it.
I hope you don't mind a spirited debate.

[YOU-CANT-EAT-SCENERY]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

I hope you don't mind a spirited debate.

This just might get good!!

[HG_75]

You guys are scaring me with all the negative posts about Missoula. I'll be there starting this fall, but on the UM campus, which is supposedly beautiful, so hopefully I don't share the same feelings with most of you on it.

[NYMTman]

Eh, I love Missoula. Of course, I'm not a native Montanan. My mother is a native Montanan, however, and she loves Missoula as well.

It's a lovely town as long as you're not longing for a Missoula of the past.

[mark6052]

joejoe myman, we are alike in some ways, but I'll bet i'm much older which gives me alittle diff perspective. you have been around long enough to see a change in MT. my point was its the "locals selling out to the outsiders. If all you can do is pay rent and drink the cheap beer, you have never been the part or history of MT that had any influence. that maybe what bothers you the most. the "old" guard controlled the land. yes you got to hunt & fish and know the vastness of the land. but you are not the one selling the large amount of lands to the outsiders. so that freedom has changed. you cant stop the younger folks from selling when the old die off. by buying some land you will be able to control alittle of the area. good luck to you my friend.

[JoeJoeMan]

Mark Wrote:

joejoe myman, we are alike in some ways, but I'll bet i'm much older which gives me alittle diff perspective. you have been around long enough to see a change in MT. my point was its the "locals selling out to the outsiders. If all you can do is pay rent and drink the cheap beer, you have never been the part or history of MT that had any influence. that maybe what bothers you the most. the "old" guard controlled the land. yes you got to hunt & fish and know the vastness of the land. but you are not the one selling the large amount of lands to the outsiders. so that freedom has changed. you cant stop the younger folks from selling when the old die off. by buying some land you will be able to control alittle of the area. good luck to you my friend.

First off, thanks for taking my comments in stride.
Second, you can't be that much older than me, else you wouldn't be thinking you're still the badest cowpoke in the valley, at my age I can't move fast enought to get out of my own way.
Actually, I could buy a place if I wanted to, and I don't drink cheap beer, why bother for a buck more you get the good stuff, but I don't drink beer anyway.
I've decided it is not worth buying a place at the current prices. I guess I could find a cheap place in some out of the way place, but living in solitute away from friends and family, is not my idea of a happy life.
Sure I'm aware of the locals selling off property, it's all part of the dynamics of change.
My grip is only particially based in the price of property, it's a result of what's been happening, not the cause.
The gist of my grip, and it's not really a grip, it's more like a commentary or warning to the public. And that is simply, that the very reason we like Montana, the reason people want to move here, and the idea that is used to promote Montana, well it's disappering.
It's so ironic that the virtues of Montana are being touted in one hand, while the other hand is doing it's best to undermine it.
People will do what they will, as they've always done before, then turn around when it's too late and say.."Gee what happened"
How many problem are we experiencing now that are related to growth ?...lots......"So why do we keep promoting it"
Why do we except growth as good ? Just because it makes money, creates jobs. Many old practices have been stopped even though they made money, created jobs, bad mining practices for example.
Can we pass laws to stop it, I don't know, and that's not my point, if we do nothing else STOP PROMOTING IT, ie. attracting people/business into the state. we can be happy where we live and they can be happy where they live.
It's very simple.........not only are we creating problems for ourselves that we than have to pay to correct (build 4 lanes in the bitterrot), but we are ruining what we love. Call me silly but I think a monkey could figure that out.