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Old 08-26-2007, 01:22 PM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,803,869 times
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You can regulate the way land can be developed upon (where and how), the way it can be divided and sold, and the uses for the land (agricultural, residential, commercial). You can do this to the point where certain parcels of land aren't as valuable to those that want to subdivide and/or build a Walmart on it. You can do it so only X number of dwellings are allowed per Y acres in Z zone.

However, that a) flies in the face of the very ideology that most Montanans covet, and b) it does drive up usable land values in certain areas tremendously, and stagnates other land elsewhere.

So basically the effect of it would be that you control sprawl in Western Montana cities and towns, but to the effect that it becomes even more expensive than it already is.

 
Old 08-26-2007, 02:25 PM
 
Location: I live in Ronan, MT but am stationed in Virginia Beach
290 posts, read 627,011 times
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Greed........
 
Old 08-26-2007, 02:35 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,392,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRead View Post
Greed........
Ok, so maybe it's greed.... easy word to say but how exactly to you throttle it? I thought the idea of restricting family transfers was a good one.....
 
Old 08-26-2007, 03:17 PM
 
7 posts, read 23,665 times
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I'm from Western North Dakota and went to school in Bozeman 30 years ago when it was still a little town. I'm in Colorado now because that's where the jobs were 20 years ago when I decided to settle down. And I can't believe I chose to live here because I remember as a college student always, disparagingly, calling Colorado, the California of the Rockies. Anyhow, here's my theory: Colorado, like California, was settled by gold miners. Current residents are simply descendants of those original gold diggers. Money here talks like I think it does in California. If you don't have money, you're not as "important" as if you do have money. Frankly, i see Montana becoming just another Colorado. Bozeman is going to be just another Kalispell, another Aspen, another Malibu Beach. I just googled real estate in Hamilton which used to be nothing and finally when I got to the 80th page of listings, there was real estate in the quarter million dollar range! It is a joke.
Sure, I can say I hate the money stuff but it surely makes it alot easier for me to move back to the little town atmosphere than for someone who's never left, remaining in the area because they loved it more than they loved the gd money.

So do I blame the natives for being angry? Hell no. All the growth and the outsiders who move in and buy up the land because they have the money -- well it bugs me more than it probably bugs the natives. Because I feel like I can see the future better than they can; they're too trusting.

But in the end, Orygun is right. We're gonna burn up on this planet unless we stop consuming so much. We've got to appreciate what we have. We've gotta have some values that don't center on what we own and what we're gonna buy. And we've gotta make those values clear to our children who have to make a future that we can't promise them.

For those people who want to "return to their small town values," how about making those changes in your own home? Start with not going to the mall/store/Walmart on Sundays. Take one day a week where you don't drive/consume/buy. Take your kids on a picnic/to church/or whatever activities we used to do that now, at an older age, make us yearn for those small town times.

If you're lucky enough to have land/money/assets more than enough to go around, forget the second or third home. Help the little lady in the eyesore house who can't afford to paint the outside but is too proud. Do the small town things where you live and I'm betting Mother Earth (who truly does it up best in Montana and North Dakota) will love us all the better for it; She will appreciate the reduction in emission alone! Your kids will benefit from seeing those "small town values" in action even when they're living in a city. Give back like we all learned to do and reduce our consumption!
 
Old 08-26-2007, 04:51 PM
 
1,965 posts, read 5,768,740 times
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I agree with the original poster that the Montana forum is full of some of the angriest posters I have ever seen. Guess what...in America you don't have any birthrights base upon where you are born. All of us are forced to struggle for every last cent, no exceptions. The upside is that this freedom allows a poor city kid who wanted to live in Montana work hard, save money, and live in Montana. Conversly, you don't get something simply b/c of being born in Montana. You folks are the mirror image of the lazy inhabitants of the 9th ward in New Orleans.
 
Old 08-26-2007, 05:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
I agree with the original poster that the Montana forum is full of some of the angriest posters I have ever seen. Guess what...in America you don't have any birthrights base upon where you are born. All of us are forced to struggle for every last cent, no exceptions. The upside is that this freedom allows a poor city kid who wanted to live in Montana work hard, save money, and live in Montana. Conversly, you don't get something simply b/c of being born in Montana. You folks are the mirror image of the lazy inhabitants of the 9th ward in New Orleans.
This is ridiculous. You should have a birthright to where you're born - it's a crucial part of having pride in your community. It's part of giving yourself back to the community. It's part of being more than just yourself.

That's not to say that you can't find "home" somewhere other than where you were born, or that newcomers can't contribute positively either.

If people stop caring, you're just going to see more and more crime-ridding, despairing communities. But hey, you can always just move somewhere else, right?

Your New Orleans comparison is just silly, and insulting to anyone that was part of that tragedy. Grow the hell up.
 
Old 08-27-2007, 07:48 AM
 
1,965 posts, read 5,768,740 times
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"This is ridiculous. You should have a birthright to where you're born - it's a crucial part of having pride in your community."

Really? So if you are born on the upper east side of manhattan and your family loses its fortune the govt. should protect your ability to live there through rent control and/or subsidies? Wrong. America is about freedom. The freedom to succeed, and to fail. Ever seen the Magnificent Ambersons? There are no birthrights in America. Of course you should have pride in your community. But that doesn't mean you get to interfere with capitalism and the freedom of movement of American citizens.
 
Old 08-27-2007, 08:33 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,392,329 times
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I kind of have a problem with this birthright thing.... Since we all pay federal taxes to support ALL of the states, roads, police,fire,parks,health and welfare that entitles everyone to the home court advantage everywhere. It would be like saying "if your luck has you born in east LA or compton then that's where you will stay" regardless of how much money you pay for the upkeep of other places which is counter to the idea of "united states".

To take the birthright thing to it's ultimate end then this state can stop taking ANY federal funds from people outside the state and pay the freight themselves.
 
Old 08-27-2007, 08:38 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,803,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
"This is ridiculous. You should have a birthright to where you're born - it's a crucial part of having pride in your community."

Really? So if you are born on the upper east side of manhattan and your family loses its fortune the govt. should protect your ability to live there through rent control and/or subsidies? Wrong. America is about freedom. The freedom to succeed, and to fail. Ever seen the Magnificent Ambersons? There are no birthrights in America. Of course you should have pride in your community. But that doesn't mean you get to interfere with capitalism and the freedom of movement of American citizens.
We interfere with capitalism all of this time.

Local citizens/governments have to choice to control the "freedom of movement" of American citizens, and do so all of the time. As a middle or lower class person, try moving to Marin or Fairfield County.

There are other birthrights in America. Inheritance? Legacy? Being born in a certain area is no more fair or unfair (to capitalism or otherwise) then these other two things (and there are more) - why no scorn for them?

Furthermore (and perhaps I misspoke earlier), I never thought you should have a birthright to where you're born so much as I do think that citizens who do currently live in a community have a right to dictate how it is to be governed (including growth and population concerns). Or rather, if you pay taxes you should have a say. I certainly don't think I should have any unique claim to where I was born if I happen to live half-way across the country.
 
Old 08-27-2007, 09:26 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,392,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorless View Post
We interfere with capitalism all of this time.

Furthermore (and perhaps I misspoke earlier), I never thought you should have a birthright to where you're born so much as I do think that citizens who do currently live in a community have a right to dictate how it is to be governed (including growth and population concerns). Or rather, if you pay taxes you should have a say. I certainly don't think I should have any unique claim to where I was born if I happen to live half-way across the country.
I have to agree with this, in no way should someone who just arrived,part time resident,not a resident at all in an area try and dictate to the people that have been there how things should be done.
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