Big Sky or Big Sprawl? (Ronan: equity, relocating, tornado)

[Anchorless]

You're still hilarious.

About your property rights diatribe - it's going to happen someday, bud. It's already happened in Montana - look at what's the voters in Ravalli County have voted for recently. It's happened in Oregon, Proposition Two was voted down in Idaho. At some point Montanans will wake up and smell the coffee, too.

I still don't understand your problem with the article, aside from some knee-jerk fear mongering. Care to explain?

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Anchorless

You're still hilarious.

About your property rights diatribe - it's going to happen someday, bud. It's already happened in Montana - look at what's the voters in Ravalli County have voted for recently. It's happened in Oregon, Proposition Two was voted down in Idaho. At some point Montanans will wake up and smell the coffee, too.

I still don't understand your problem with the article, aside from some knee-jerk fear mongering. Care to explain?

Evidently not in the Flathead... I guess there's still a lot of old time property owners and people who've had the Oregon stuff shoved down their throats and don't want the state or what they call the "greenies" telling them what to do. These groups have lost so far on all fronts, they tried to stop Bucky Wolfords mall and failed, they tried to stop a big housing subdivision and failed. I could go on ad nauseum. You see, except for some radical transplants (like North 93 and Citzens for a better Flathead) no one else is complaining as loudly and those groups are seen as greenie whackos.
Maybe it's because they see high density as what is in the places they visit but don't want to live in or near. Maybe it's because they see where those groups get their funding and don't like that. Hard to say which or even if that's the only reasons....
The only way property rights change here is if enough transplants from the "left coast" like Oregon and San Francisco take over and the majority of locals die off.
You can shout about high density building and sprawl all you want, in this valley (so far as I can tell) your almost shouting alone to people who are deaf and I wouldn't bet on their hearing improving anytime soon.

[Anchorless]

I don't disagree with that.

[GiftShoppeGuy]

We won't have much longer to wait.
From the looks of things, those from the left coast will be taking over in the Flathead, if the migration of the natives continues to happen.

Most of the new homes being built over here on the Rocky Mountain Front are for those native Montanans fleeing the Flathead in droves.

As it stands now, in the Flathead, there is only one native for every ten transplants...

[jenzebel]

Originally Posted by GiftShoppeGuy

....

As it stands now, in the Flathead, there is only one native for every ten transplants...

Somehow I knew that but seeing it on this forum makes me realize how very sad I am about how much we have already lost and continue to lose here in Montana.

[jenzebel]

Originally Posted by Anchorless

Research Interests of Dr. Rina Ghose

So basically she's doing formal research on everything this board and forum has argued about.

1. Equity rich people moving into smaller mountain areas (Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah), bringing growth and sprawl. Care to dispute this?

2. People that come in with more purchasing power tend to buy choice land and landscapes (you even said you agree with this earlier), typically outside of urban areas, to establish homesteads and ranches or simply small properties. This process changes the physical and cultural landscape or the area. Again, can you deny this?
3. This phenomenon tends to artificially drive up home and property values, as people that are equity rich can afford more expensive housing while also taking the necessary pay cut such locations warrant (if they even have to work at all). This in turn squeeze out the lower and middle class - they can no longer afford their property taxes, wages don't keep up, and they can no longer afford to buy into these areas.

4. This causes conflicts between the newcomers and the residents, over how to use local resources, the way the place is changing (where to put new roads, Walmarts, coffee shops), the political atmosphere, etc.....

As far as I am concerned, she has hit the nail on the head. Montanans have seen it happen in the very manner she describes.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by GiftShoppeGuy

We won't have much longer to wait.
From the looks of things, those from the left coast will be taking over in the Flathead, if the migration of the natives continues to happen.

Most of the new homes being built over here on the Rocky Mountain Front are for those native Montanans fleeing the Flathead in droves.

As it stands now, in the Flathead, there is only one native for every ten transplants...

Interesting figures, exactly where did you come up with them? Is the one in ten figure your assumption or has a study been done like a current census that everyone answered? If that's the case please enlighten us as to where it is, I'd love to read it. Same with the "people fleeing the flathead" statement.
I find it hard to believe that native montanan's are only 10% of the population of this whole valley......

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by jimj

Interesting figures, exactly where did you come up with them? Is the one in ten figure your assumption or has a study been done like a current census that everyone answered? If that's the case please enlighten us as to where it is, I'd love to read it. Same with the "people fleeing the flathead" statement.
I find it hard to believe that native montanan's are only 10% of the population of this whole valley......

And if there is a published report, would you read it?.. Would you believe it if you did indeed read it?..

There are things that go on here that doesn't have to be published. The facts are there if anyone would care to look.
New and used home sales in the Flathead are very clearly 90% *non-native, and new home sales on the Rocky Mountain Front are very clearly 97% native.
The Flathead is the leader with areas in Mineral County and Lincoln County following a close second here.

Great Falls (Cascade County) accounts for 40% native from just Missoula County alone... Surprise, surprise... and here I thought I was the only one that was fleeing the area.

Anyone in the building industry with any salt can see it. Sometimes we have to wait to be paid until the "house in the Flathead" sells...

The last thing anyone would be willing to do is to portray western Montana as the new California... so you aren't ever going to see these kinds of numbers published.

[Anchorless]

Originally Posted by jimj

Interesting figures, exactly where did you come up with them? Is the one in ten figure your assumption or has a study been done like a current census that everyone answered? If that's the case please enlighten us as to where it is, I'd love to read it. Same with the "people fleeing the flathead" statement.
I find it hard to believe that native montanan's are only 10% of the population of this whole valley......

Hold on. Since we're asking people to provide sources for their claims:

From the "Fear of Change" thread...

Originally Posted by jimj

...There are people moving here from all over the states, lately they have been from Oregon,Washington,Florida etc, not so much from CA anymore...

Now I've seen stats concerning CA immigration to Idaho, and it was something like 59 new licenses from CA per day. Unfortunately, I can't find that link so I'm in the same spot as everyone else - speculation.

Just judging from my experiences, and from the posts started here (a small representative sample), I'd think most new Montanans were indeed Californian immigrants. Care to provide links that suggest what you suggest above, that lately they've been from other states?

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by jenzebel

Somehow I knew that but seeing it on this forum makes me realize how very sad I am about how much we have already lost and continue to lose here in Montana.

My information comes from the building industry here in the state primarily, coupled with licenses applied for and approved over the past 18 months in the state and five western county survey, done on my own time with regard to building permits, school admissions, and other what nots.

The one in ten figure is a generous one at best, when you look at Flathead, Lake and Sanders Counties.
Lincoln and Mineral Counties aren't fairing much better, with a 40% increase from Washington/Oregon.

Lake and Flathead Counties are still topping out at a 73% increase with California and Arizona leading the charge.

My personal feeling is such that says these guys aren't going to stop until they've ruined everything they "thought" they loved in the first place.