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Old 09-09-2007, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Great Falls, Montana
529 posts, read 1,728,341 times
Reputation: 245

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan View Post
"HUBZone" =

Hummm.. "Empowerment" = just another way of saying "government (ie tax payer's) money. I could see where this might raise a few hairs in some places, espeically with some salt of the earth fiery independent types who pretty much grew up eating dirt to make it on their own.
Right again on all counts JJM...
Some folks just can't get on in this world without spending our tax money on something... and many of these federal progs do just that.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:58 AM
 
989 posts, read 3,126,481 times
Reputation: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiftShoppeGuy View Post
Ironicly it's not just Montana...

Texas, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho and even Utah, if you can believe it, all complain about the same things when it comes to California.

California has worked long and hard to establish it's poor reputation over the past 60 some odd, or more, years, and everyone in the west knows it.... So everyone in the west gives credit where credit is due.

Nope, we here in Montana don't hold exclusive rights to any kind of California bashing... We share the sentiment with all of our other mountain state neighbors equally.

If California was all they seem to think they are, then folks from there wouldn't be half killing themselves to get the flock out. It's a pretty bad place when even it's own citizens are screaming to leave, and can't get out of there fast enough.
Good post.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:16 PM
 
14 posts, read 31,047 times
Reputation: 13
Default .03 cents

I've been reading this forum trying to get a sense of things. Posted a thread. Just kind of seeing what folks have to say. It's all very interesting, to say the least.

I have lived all over (lived in 38 states, been to all the rest but 2). My dad was a journeyman wireman before he retired, so we traveled for his work. Mostly lived in small towns. Because of the nature of work, we lived in a lot of small mountain towns, and a lot of towns near reservations and so forth. Add to it that our family has been farmers and horse traders (egads!, I know how all the crazies feel about that!) since about 1801, and you get a rough idea of the background. Mine is the first generation of the family that is starting to change vocation (money is the big factor in this, as we all love horses like it's nobodies business, but we love being able to eat and the confidence of knowing we have a roof over our heads and SOME kind of savings account for emergencies, better).

I guess all that is to say, from my perspective, a lot of the complaints I see about people and so on is nothing new. Small towns everywhere are often insular. I've only lived in a couple where the people of the town were downright welcoming from day one. It takes time - and a lot of it. People need to know you're moving there and plan to be a part of the community, and do things to benefit the community, not just live in your own bubble on your own private island, so to speak. In the town where our family farm is, it's the same thing as it is with CA folks in Montana, except they call 'em "City Folks". Every time I go back for our family reunion I get about an hour rundown on the latest city nutbags that moved in and did something stupid. And, to be frank, they've done some pretty stupid stuff, really (like move downwind from a chicken house THEY built....lol...that's just good entertainment for the locals, really). In that particular town, everyone waves. Everyone knows who everyone is. And they don't like city folks. BUT, that said, they wouldn't leave one stranded, or let one starve, either. They'd help 'em if it came down to it. AND, my uncle reminds me regularly, I'm now a city person. I've been working in them for a few years, so I now fit that category. GREAT! :-) I only get by there because of my family and the fact that I know everyone there.

Here's the paradox, and I know Montanans can appreciate it. You encourage your kids to get a good education. You kill yourself to send them to school to get it. They get the education, but then, more times than not, can't work anywhere in their home state. So they move and get a job to pursue this family dream. Then they become the city people. Nasty little cycle.... It's exactly the same in the south, which is where most of my family is at (some have migrated up this way for jobs, though, in the last 15 years or so, including me).

My situation. I've got a student loan, because my folks couldn't afford for me to go to college. So I bit the bullet and took out loans. I have absolutely zero debt, other than that loan. I can't afford to buy a house or condo where I live anywhere within commuting distance (Seattle). So I'm trying to find somewhere where I can. I prefer those smaller mountain towns and desert towns, really, so that's where I start looking. I had a job interview with a place in Missoula the other day. I thought I was going to fall over when they briefly mentioned the pay range. 10k below the national average, and not even remotely close to an affordable pay if you ever want to own anything within commuting distance of town. Even renting on any salary in the range they mentioned would leave you with, at most, $60 left after just basic bills & rent. When I say basic, I mean basic. Food. Apartment (nothing fancy, either, just a one bedroom roof over the head situation). Utilities. Gas for the car. Car insurance (which, as an aside, I found out is higher than my insurance for living in downtown Seattle!). My initial reaction was - how the hell do employers get away with it? I think they must take advantage of the people who are from there and have family ties and obligations and can't really leave, so they suck it up and take what they can and find a way to scrape by and make ends meet. The idea of that really kind of pisses ME off, and I'm not from there. They point blank said, after mentioning the salary range, that it isn't a livable salary given the housing market. So they know the market is out of control, and they know the wages don't remotely compare. They're a private employer, and have chosen to do nothing to mitigate that. Wow. Then, in the same breath, they said they're having a really tough time finding qualified people to fill jobs, and that's why they got in touch with me so quickly and were hoping to move the interview process along. All I could think was "Well, no SH*T, Sherlock!". People can't LIVE on that. You don't become qualified for jobs overnight, and usually not for free. Even if it IS for free, you don't bust your butt for years on end becoming good at what you do to then be told you're only going to earn entry level wages or less. Nuts.

I think this whole economy, not just Montana, is going to hell in a handbasket. LOL. How's that for facts and stats and such? ha-ha. Can't live where the jobs are, and can't live where the jobs aren't (especially if you're still single trying to do it). Damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of thing.

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway......
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:33 PM
 
121 posts, read 361,251 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cep66 View Post
..... I had a job interview with a place in Missoula the other day. I thought I was going to fall over when they briefly mentioned the pay range. 10k below the national average, and not even remotely close to an affordable pay if you ever want to own anything within commuting distance of town. Even renting on any salary in the range they mentioned would leave you with, at most, $60 left after just basic bills & rent. When I say basic, I mean basic. Food. Apartment (nothing fancy, either, just a one bedroom roof over the head situation). Utilities. Gas for the car. Car insurance (which, as an aside, I found out is higher than my insurance for living in downtown Seattle!). My initial reaction was - how the hell do employers get away with it? ......
I have been posting about the low pay all along. I have a degree and I stayed and yet I can barely afford to live here.

How do they get away with it?

Well, the first way they get away with it is by hiring those workers that either don't need to make much money, because they are rich or just working to supplement their retirement or whatever. I had a horrible experience in a certain desirable area of Montana. I interviewed for a great position and was told I was the leading candidate BUT after I interviewed, a rich retiree that didn't need the money decided she needed to volunteer and guess what---to save money they chose to take on a volunteer rather than pay me. It happens more often than you would think, especially in certain occupations/fields.

Secondly, everybody seems to want to be here. They hear the cost of living is low (which is a joke as you have discovered) and they think they can make it on the low pay. They move here and then discover they can't make it and move away or they stay and slave away at two or more jobs like the rest of us.

I now work two jobs and take on extra work and still can't afford to buy a house. My pay in Montana has always been @1/2 of the national average for my line of work and I don't see it changing.


I am glad someone like you wrote into this forum. Maybe you will be believed. Whenever I present the same information, I am always branded as someone who is making all of this up to keep people from moving here. If more people would research carefully, they would find out what you did--that in many cases it is not economically feasible to move here.
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:57 PM
 
121 posts, read 361,251 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulskjegg View Post
I am originally from Philadelphia, and having travelled Asia, Europe (East, West and as the Czech's say 'Central'), South America, and North America coast-to-coast (Canada included) Id have to say the people in Montana, or the town of Cut Bank specifically, are the lowest form of life I have yet to encounter. Barely meeting the term "people". Every foul, vile aspect of humanity, they have in abundance.

Backstabbing, falsity, treacherous, gossipy, jealous, petty, hatefull, childish, etc etc.

My wife boiled it down to "They have failed at life, and its easier to blame those outside their pathetically tiny circle then blame themselves". I was amused to read a report on this forum about Colstrip, Montana. It was a carbon copy of everything we experienced! Minus the dead animal on the doorstep and vandalized cars of course.

We have since moved to Kalispell and are having a grand ole' time. Mostly due to the fact that alot of people here aint from Montana.

Shame, too, as we are getting ready to close negotiations on 3 federal contracts (the original reason we moved here). I planned to employ some people and support the local economy. Give back to the community, as it were.

Now? We will go the extra mile to ensure we spend little to none of the profits in Cut Bank, then using the house we have there as a tax writeoff. We get the all the HUBZone and IRS benefits, Cut Bank gets ZILCH!

Couldnt happen to a better pack of scum!

Anyone seeking a true representation of the "small town mindset", go watch the movie Deliverance (1972) with Burt Reynolds and Ned Beatty. Its all you will ever need to understand...everything.

Only in Cut Bank its meth labs (strange explosions every weekend, and the chief of police runnings the whole meth operation!), not illegal whiskey still.
With your attitude, it doesn't surprise me that you weren't welcomed there. Sounds like you came into town thinking you were God's gift to the natives.

What really irks me is people like you that move to Montana just to benefit your own business. Oh sure, you bring your business here under the guise of providing jobs for the locals. I've seen several businesses move here just because they feel they can get away with paying less to Montana workers, it helps keep our average wage at 49th in the nation and our unemployment rate so low. Funny how that works.

Government subsidized labor at bargain basement prices. It is obvious you don't care about Montanans.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:58 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,448,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenzebel View Post
it helps keep our average wage at 49th in the nation and our unemployment rate so low. Funny how that works.
I think we actually moved up to 48th!!! Finally, move'n on up...move'n on up... to the eastside lah lah lah to a deeelux trailerhome in the big skyyyyy.

First, yeah, retirement pays sooo well. I'm sure most wouldn't be working at Wal Mart and such if they could afford to live on retirement money not to mention they WORKED for that retirement. As for the rich, I really haven't seen a whole lot of them working. Shopping,eating and partying sure but work? I don't think so.
I would hope that person that was volunteering was doing so out of the goodness of her heart, not to put you out of a job. Why not put the blame where it belongs? With the company!

I don't disagree with you that most of the jobs here pay squat and definately have not kept up with costs and there are people that come here thinking they can make it, find out they can't and either move or suck it up and do what they have to do in order to stay here. I guess it all depends on how bad you want to be here. Is either one of those things bad?

We are starting to see wages sloooowly come up because employees are able to walk from companies that won't pay more than minimum wage, and the wage increase cycle begins.
But you know what I hear most? In fact I heard it again just yesterday, "what happened to the work ethic in this state"? "Very few people here has any idea what work is and when they're asked to work for what they're paid they walk or complain and whine". This is not me saying it, this is from business owners and managers.
I don't know how to fix what's wrong here, do you start with the owners not paying enough, or do you start with the employees that aren't worth what they're paid?
Which start would make things run as they should?
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:15 PM
 
14 posts, read 31,047 times
Reputation: 13
LOL....woo-hoo! 48th! That's optimism in the face of adversity if I've ever seen it. If you can't laugh, what can you do...

As for the ethic, who knows, really. But honestly, my thought is, without knowing circumstances is, employers hike up the pay and then demand quality. Then, you give 'em the boot if they don't do their job up to snuff, and your problem isn't a problem because there will be people in line to take that job and do the work and do it well. That doesn't seem so complicated to me (but things always are, of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
I think we actually moved up to 48th!!! Finally, move'n on up...move'n on up... to the eastside lah lah lah to a deeelux trailerhome in the big skyyyyy. <snip>

But you know what I hear most? In fact I heard it again just yesterday, "what happened to the work ethic in this state"? "Very few people here has any idea what work is and when they're asked to work for what they're paid they walk or complain and whine". This is not me saying it, this is from business owners and managers.
I don't know how to fix what's wrong here, do you start with the owners not paying enough, or do you start with the employees that aren't worth what they're paid?
Which start would make things run as they should?
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Southwest Missouri
1,921 posts, read 5,648,129 times
Reputation: 910
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenzebel View Post
How do they get away with it?

Well, the first way they get away with it is by hiring those workers that either don't need to make much money, because they are rich or just working to supplement their retirement or whatever.

I am glad someone like you wrote into this forum. Maybe you will be believed. Whenever I present the same information, I am always branded as someone who is making all of this up to keep people from moving here.
Respectfully, you have a victim's mentality. You continuously refer to business owners and companies as they like that's what is keeping you from success or achievement. Put away the crying towel and do something for yourself that is more productive than blaming them for your troubles.

If you think employees are being taken advantage of, start your own company and pay what you feel is a fair wage. By the sound of things, you should have a pile of resumes a foot tall to sift through so that you could find the best people. Then, since you'd be treating them fairly you should have their loyalty and respect. That should give you a competitive advantage that would allow you to work more efficiently than your competition while doing a better job in the process. Of course, then you'd be one of them that someone else would come on here and complain about.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:46 PM
 
33 posts, read 69,217 times
Reputation: 19
Well, We had people move into the house next door... at first they seemed like nice people our kids play together and we had them over to a barbeque. Then one day the dad stood in the street and yelled at my husband who was working on our front steps - the guy was really drunk - called my Husband "chief" (implying his braid made him an indian and told us that the construction of our front porch was ruining his home values. He didnt' like the delta rib metal roofing on the porch! He has alot to complain about the foundation of his "new" bought house is falling out, the chimney is crumbling and the back fence is falling over - but it is my porch that is runing his property values!
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:58 PM
 
14 posts, read 31,047 times
Reputation: 13
I don't think there is anything wrong with saying certain employers could do better by themselves and their employees by paying a better wage. I think, in some cases, there is an element of choice. And of course, some employers choose to pay the bare minimum. Which is fine, and they can do as they see fit. Just don't complain that you can't find good help after making a choice to pay the lowest wage possible. People do need to eat and have a roof over their head. It's only natural to look for something better for yourself and/or your family. There appears to be a reason that good help is hard to find, to me. And employers know what that reason is. I don't have the answer for fixing it. But they shouldn't cry victim, either. As if they have no ability to minimize the damage. A lot of private employers do have some ability to minimize it, while still being able to make a healthy profit. But if an employer chooses not to....well, as is the case with an employee - don't WHINE about it. You don't like the pay as an employee? Leave or don't take the job. Simple. Same goes for employers. You don't like the employees you're getting, or you're losing good employees? Don't WHINE - do something about it. Put your money where your mouth is.

There will always be people complaining. Nothing new under the sun there. But when there's a gap like the gap in that area between pay and cost of living/housing, it doesn't do employers or employees a service to ignore it. I don't know what the politics there are, or if it's something they're legitimately trying to catch up to and do something about, or what. But you can't ignore that there's a rift there between pay and cost of living. It just IS. Which is where my question came from (how are people doing it). Morganpony gave me a real good answer as to how some people are doing it. And so then you choose. Do you do it or don't you. Always about choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 SNAKE View Post
Respectfully, you have a victim's mentality. You continuously refer to business owners and companies as they like that's what is keeping you from success or achievement. Put away the crying towel and do something for yourself that is more productive than blaming them for your troubles.

If you think employees are being taken advantage of, start your own company and pay what you feel is a fair wage. By the sound of things, you should have a pile of resumes a foot tall to sift through so that you could find the best people. Then, since you'd be treating them fairly you should have their loyalty and respect. That should give you a competitive advantage that would allow you to work more efficiently than your competition while doing a better job in the process. Of course, then you'd be one of them that someone else would come on here and complain about.
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