Ennis v. Emigrant (Bozeman, Livingston, Big Sky: real estate, rent, credit)

[Hampstead1]

Dear Folks:

I am coming down to the wire in my decision to buy some property in either the Paridise Valley or near Ennis. Probably going to buy the land and buildi on it within next 10 years or may look for employement (or hang out my own shingle) as a lawyer and therefore move out sooner (hopefully). The issues that are important to me in my comparison are:

1. Windiness (if there is such a word)
2. Future appreciation of the land
3. Trout fishing (I generally wade in)
4. Presence of wildlife
5. The possibilites of employment as an attorney in each area.

Could someone who is familar with both areas please advise. Feel free to chime in about anything else that you think I should consider regarding my choice. Thanks in advance.
Joe

[Reziac]

I'd say the major difference is the wind. Ennis, not so much, tho you get twin-engine mosquitoes. Emigrant, where'd the town go? It was here a minute ago... oh, hello Dorothy!

[flyingcat2k]

1) There is a fair amount of wilderness in these areas but you'll be hiking a while into the wilderness area to not see someones "mountain house" or other such building. The valleys are quite full of homes and other tourist businesses.

2) This is basically resort property without the resort. Montana does not have a large non-US following in real estate like CA, CO, NY, Seattle. Thus, there is a limit to what appreciation there is in Montana property. I know of a lot of million and multi-million dollar properties that people interested in them can't afford and the people that can afford them are not interested in them. In short, high end Montana property is very illiquid. If you are buying it, don't count on any appreciation except in the amount of property tax you will owe.

3) Trout fishing in these areas is blue ribbon. It is difficult to get better locations. Thus, the property values are very high. Again, nothing moves in the market around the area. Most people are not willing to lower their prices and don't have to.

4) Both areas have decent wildlife. You're more likely to get a bit more in Emigrant due to the proximity to the park.

5) A few things about law. I'm sure that you are aware that Montana does not reciprocate with any state. You will need to pass the bar exam to practice in the state without other council. Also, Montanans, generally, are adverse to lawsuits so trial lawyers aren't going to make a practice of solely civil suits. The Montana bar has its own quirks (as does every state) but it isn't extremely difficult if you are accustomed to being licensed in several states.

[NDak15]

Originally Posted by Hampstead1

Dear Folks:

I am coming down to the wire in my decision to buy some property in either the Paridise Valley or near Ennis. Probably going to buy the land and buildi on it within next 10 years or may look for employement (or hang out my own shingle) as a lawyer and therefore move out sooner (hopefully). The issues that are important to me in my comparison are:

1. Windiness (if there is such a word)
2. Future appreciation of the land
3. Trout fishing (I generally wade in)
4. Presence of wildlife
5. The possibilites of employment as an attorney in each area.

Could someone who is familar with both areas please advise. Feel free to chime in about anything else that you think I should consider regarding my choice. Thanks in advance.
Joe

I haven't spent much time in Ennis so can't help you much on that, but I grew up not far from Emigrant so will answer some questions on that.

1. Paradise Valley can get hurricane force winds. The winter is worse for that.
2. Paradise Valley has been a popular second home destination, not sure if it still is.
3. Plenty of it.
4. Plenty of it.
5. Emigrant is more like a settlement than a town so I would not count the town itself as a place to practice law. Your nearest towns will be Livingston at around 20 miles away and Gardiner at over 30 miles away.

[historyfan]

What?!! Ennis is extremely windy..especially in the winter.
Lots of wildlife, lots of trout.
Without knowing exactly what you are considering in Ennis, I can not give you educated guess if it will appreciate soon.
Right now the values are depressed in upper priced properties in greater Bozeman area including Big Sky and the Flathead region. Those areas will bounce back up first.
Ennis to Bozeman is commutable enough to base law practice in Boz.
I know lots about Ennis but very little about Emigrant.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by Hampstead1

Dear Folks:

I am coming down to the wire in my decision to buy some property in either the Paridise Valley or near Ennis. Probably going to buy the land and buildi on it within next 10 years or may look for employement (or hang out my own shingle) as a lawyer and therefore move out sooner (hopefully). The issues that are important to me in my comparison are:

1. Windiness (if there is such a word)
2. Future appreciation of the land
3. Trout fishing (I generally wade in)
4. Presence of wildlife
5. The possibilites of employment as an attorney in each area.

Could someone who is familar with both areas please advise. Feel free to chime in about anything else that you think I should consider regarding my choice. Thanks in advance.
Joe

I'll step up and take a swing here:

1. Windiness: Lots of wind in both places. I think Paradise Valley might slightly edge out Ennis. Where in Ennis are you talking about? The further south you go in Madison Valley, the more windy it gets, and if you're out at Cameron or Reynold's Pass, well, that is definitely windier than Emigrant.

2. I've been eyeing some parcels for years now in both areas, waiting for the right time, and it looks like as home prices are trending very slightly upward, the land won't be too far behind. I would say this is a good time to buy land in either area. It all depends on the parcel really. How big? River access? Bordering BLM, FS etc? Bare land, sloping, what? It's completely idiosyncratic and no two parcels will be the same.

I am partial to the southern Madison. I love the mountains there, and the dirt and rocks... One of my favorite mountain ranges. But in Paradise you will have the Absaroka looming above you... It's a tough call, but speaking very generally, I would assume that Paradise Valley will appreciate slightly faster.

This is all true only if they don't open the road from Moonlight Basin to Ennis to the public. I have heard through my construction buddies, that there are plans to build a subdivision up Jack Creek, called Lost Lake. Hundreds of McMansions will be going into some of the most beautiful land you have ever seen. These are all rumors now, and hopefully that doesn't happen. I saw the plan and bids for jobs back in 2010, so they must be making some headway by now, one way or another. There has been talk for awhile now about expanding the Ennis airport. If that happens, then all bets are on land around Ennis.

3. You can't go wrong in either spot really... Ennis and the upper Madison have to take the cake though on this one. This is where fisherman will rent out a cabin for $1200 a week to fish. The banks are lined with fisherman. They are also like this on the Yellowstone too... Hmmm, it's another close one, but really, fishing should be your last worry because it's phenomenal in either spot, and hey you can always take a drive over the pass.

4. This is actually a good question. On land in either valley, I have found the ecosystems to be slightly different. In Madison Valley you will get a lot of antelope. I mean everywhere. In Paradise Valley, you get a lot of deer, and it is pretty dangerous to drive at night. I know people that have hit elk on the highway. Both areas have grizzlies, wolves, cats, you name it in the mountains. But down in the valleys, it is so fenced off now that you will most likely be dealing with ungulates or an occasional black bear.

5. As for employment... Well what do you want to do? Livingston and Ennis are small towns, but Livingston has more of a year round economy since it's got a mill, a freeway, and railroad, while both cities thrive on tourism. If you want to do construction, you could find work in either city, but more so in Livingston again. It's just a bigger town. Lots of the construction companies who build in the Madison operate in Bozeman or Big Sky, with only a handful opening offices in Ennis. Ennis also has an office for Moonlight Basin in town. They would be a place I would look at for all manner of jobs. Like I said before, there is a backroad that some employees use to get to Moonlight from Ennis. You need a gate code to access it.

[historyfan]

Big Sky real estate values have been hard hit by economy and new construction has been adversely effected. Moonlight Basin Resort (includes Jack creek road area) went bankrupt so in hands of creditors. Construction trades out of Ennis that worked in Big Sky have laid off employees when during heyday anyone swinging hammer had a job offer. Madison lumber yard declared bankruptcy. Big Sky real estate has done a boom and bust before.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by historyfan

Big Sky real estate values have been hard hit by economy and new construction has been adversely effected. Moonlight Basin Resort (includes Jack creek road area) went bankrupt so in hands of creditors. Construction trades out of Ennis that worked in Big Sky have laid off employees when during heyday anyone swinging hammer had a job offer. Madison lumber yard declared bankruptcy. Big Sky real estate has done a boom and bust before.

Ahh thanks for the update. It's been a few years since I worked construction. I went back to school as my back was shot, and with a new baby girl on the way, well it was school or homeless.

So, I am still confident they will develop that area. Once the debt changes hands, and the dust settles, I guarantee you they will be digging that ground up, and if it happens in January, they'll have their glycol lines out there melting the ground for the excavators. From what I can tell, that's how big money works. I hope it doesn't happen this way, but it's inevitable. Either way, my vote goes to the Madison Valley, not necessarily around Ennis, but more south past Cameron as a place to watch for real estate appreciation.

[Senah]

Originally Posted by Hampstead1

Dear Folks:

I am coming down to the wire in my decision to buy some property in either the Paridise Valley or near Ennis. Probably going to buy the land and buildi on it within next 10 years or may look for employement (or hang out my own shingle) as a lawyer and therefore move out sooner (hopefully). The issues that are important to me in my comparison are:

1. Windiness (if there is such a word)
2. Future appreciation of the land
3. Trout fishing (I generally wade in)
4. Presence of wildlife
5. The possibilites of employment as an attorney in each area.

Could someone who is familar with both areas please advise. Feel free to chime in about anything else that you think I should consider regarding my choice. Thanks in advance.
Joe

Ennis needs a lawyer

Employment | Ennis, Montana