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For some reason pit bulls seem to almost attract stupid owners. I mean, the people who use dogs for fighting certainly don't pick poodles, they go for pit bulls.
For that type, it's a measure of the length of their, uh, manliness. The lowlife bully gets a Pitbull to go with his brass knucks. The middle-class d***-measurer gets a Rott. The upscale wannabe-king-of-the-neighbourhood gets a Presa or Mastiff or some other rare breed, to show that he's not only tough, he has more money than thou, too.
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Originally Posted by decembergirl
Owners should be screened to make sure they will be responsible and care for their pets.
And that's what knowledgable, experienced breeders do.
Shelters generally do not -- your typical minimum-wage grunt works at the shelter because it's the only job they can get, or because they "love animals" (well, I love cheese, but that doesn't mean I know how to make it!), NOT because they know anything about matching personalities of animals and owners.
And as for breeders or shelters that make people sign a contract -- that means nothing if you don't pick the right dog and family for each other. A piece of paper doesn't magically turn a green new owner into a savvy dog trainer, nor does it turn a d***-measuring idiot into an intelligent person.
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Last edited by Reziac; 12-23-2007 at 05:08 PM..
Reason: quoteback error
LOL! Ok Reziac, you got me, your right. After 15 years as a vet tech, I know your right. I have seen some pretty nutso dogs that just weren't right. In fact, I sport a scar on my lip from a schizo Siberian Husky (24 stitches) that we treated in the clinic. So I really have to agree that there are bad dogs, purebreds make up the majority wouldn't you agree? Which also comes back to PEOPLE being irresponsible as breeders. Can't recall ever seeing a schizo mutt
Nope, there are more schizo mutts than schizo purebreds. Crossbred dogs inherit instincts from ALL the breeds behind them, and if those conflict, the dog doesn't know what to do with itself, and may react very badly to a stimulus that its purebred ancestor would have taken in stride. Also, there is no active selection toward good temperament, since most mutts are the result of random matings, not selective breeding. (And yes, there are ignorant breeders who make excuses for their famous champion's bad temperament, but they are a tiny minority of the people producing purebred dogs. Most purebred dogs come from normal families with normal expectations of how the dog will behave, and not much tolerance for putting their kids at risk.)
A good example of how crossbreeding can be the worst of both worlds is the "doodle" (Poodle crossed with Labrador or Golden Retriever) -- the Guide Dogs in England was trying to come up with a non-allergenic dog, and this seemed like a good idea -- two excellently trainable breeds should equal nice working puppies, right? Well, it didn't work out that way; most were spooky and weird and tough to train (and sometimes impossible to housebreak), no matter how nice their parents were. The Guide Dogs gave it up as a bad idea.
Back to what you see in the real world... People are more willing to get rid of a schizo mutt, and it's more likely to just get taken to the pound and put down within a few days. So it's removed from the picture and ceases to be a problem.
Whereas people feel like they have an investment in the purebred (after all they probably paid $500 to $2000 for it) and will put up with a lot more before they finally give in and take it to a "rescue" (not the pound), where it gets pawned off on some other unsuspecting family (over half of whom will eventually take that dog back to rescue, who will pawn it off on yet another sucker).
So by the time dogs get to the Real Problem stage, there's already been some culling of bad mutts, plus there is more "recycling" of bad purebreds.
Furthermore, people who get mutts are, as a group, a lot more willing to deck a dog that offers to bite, and with most dogs one good solid discouragement is all that's ever required. Whereas the purebred is more likely to be taken to a cookie trainer's obedience class, with a "don't ever punish the dog" mentality, and the dog therefore learns that aggression is not only okay, it's even potentially rewarded!
For that type, it's a measure of the length of their, uh, manliness. The lowlife bully gets a Pitbull to go with his brass knucks. The middle-class d***-measurer gets a Rott. The upscale wannabe-king-of-the-neighbourhood gets a Presa or Mastiff or some other rare breed, to show that he's not only tough, he has more money than thou, too.
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Wow, you nailed that on the head. (no pun intended) Although they are probably trying to compensate for the lack-thereof in regards to measurement. People should not get dogs just for some type of status symbol, they should get them to be a part of their family.
Wow, you nailed that on the head. (no pun intended) Although they are probably trying to compensate for the lack-thereof in regards to measurement. People should not get dogs just for some type of status symbol, they should get them to be a part of their family.
I connect with pit bulls because I believe for the most part we share the same image. I have tattoos, long hair, ride a motorcycle and work as a welder. I am also the nicest guy you will ever meet. I am an active member in my church, and alot of people who judge me on my outside appearence would never know that. My pit bulls are the same way. they get dirty looks all the time, but if people only knew how sweet they are they would react differantly. I don't have pit bulls to look tuff, they are just the breed I connect with the most.
Furthermore, people who get mutts are, as a group, a lot more willing to deck a dog that offers to bite, and with most dogs one good solid discouragement is all that's ever required. Whereas the purebred is more likely to be taken to a cookie trainer's obedience class, with a "don't ever punish the dog" mentality, and the dog therefore learns that aggression is not only okay, it's even potentially rewarded!
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It's interesting you mention discouragement about biting. I grew up with 2 different dogs, one a german shepard. She really was a sweatheart but when she was between one and two yrs old she decided to bite me one day. I was really ticked so I immeadiately bit her back on the ear, she yelped and while it may sound weird that was the last time she ever tried that again. After that there was no agressive mouth behavior from her, and while playing she would take my hand in her mouth and put very light pressure on it, but I could pull away anytime. It was almost a game between her and I.
Loved that dog but I'm guessing she just needed to know biting hurt, almost like a child learns their own strength.
Now if you were an "unkown" to her (as a burglar once found out) she had no problem defending herself but family could stick their hand in her food bowl without worry while she was eating....
I connect with pit bulls because I believe for the most part we share the same image. I have tattoos, long hair, ride a motorcycle and work as a welder. I am also the nicest guy you will ever meet. I am an active member in my church, and alot of people who judge me on my outside appearence would never know that. My pit bulls are the same way. they get dirty looks all the time, but if people only knew how sweet they are they would react differantly. I don't have pit bulls to look tuff, they are just the breed I connect with the most.
Yes, that's very often the case too -- if Pits are the right breed for you, then nothing else quite "connects" the same way. (Chesapeakes are another breed that isn't the dog for everyone, and can easily get out of hand in the wrong hands, but if you're a real Chessie guy, then nothing else will do.)
And I think you understand the prejudice well -- being judged on how tough you look rather than on how you really behave. Yeah, lots of guys put on the biker-gang look to make themselves feel like big men -- the same idiots who get a dog for all the wrong reasons. Other people just naturally feel "at home" in that getup -- the majority of punk rockers and goths fall into that group, and likewise get tagged as tough or weird when nothing could be further from the truth.
(Personally I'd love to have a mohawk, but with my hair, if I didn't spend 24 hours a day maintaining it, it would look like I was wearing a dead rat on my head
Last edited by Reziac; 12-24-2007 at 07:59 AM..
Reason: strange typo :)
It's interesting you mention discouragement about biting. I grew up with 2 different dogs, one a german shepard. She really was a sweatheart but when she was between one and two yrs old she decided to bite me one day. I was really ticked so I immeadiately bit her back on the ear, she yelped and while it may sound weird that was the last time she ever tried that again.
You did exactly the right thing, and exactly what another dog would have done -- or a little kid, and dogs have the same mentality as a bright 5 or 6 year old human. Ever watch a bunch of kindergarteners playing? One comes up and hits another for no reason other than to see if he can get away with it. If the 2nd kid hits him back, the first learns "hitting other people is dumb" and generally doesn't do it again. But if the 2nd kid just cries and takes it, guess what, the first kid hits him again!
Puppies learn not to bite each other the same way. #1 bites #2, who turns around and bites #1 back, end of problem. But if #2 is a wimp (and some dogs are) then #1 bites again, and soon gets REALLY rough -- after all, it's lots of fun to make your littermates scream!!
Most dogs will try biting at some point, just to test your limits. If you go "Oh dear, poor poopsie must be scared or something" and try to "reassure" the dog, all you've done is reinforce the bad behaviour (in the dog's mind, you've actually PRAISED it), and ensured that the dog will try it again -- and with more force next time, since just like kids, dogs keep pushing the boundaries until they hit a hard limit.
But if you do the natural thing, ie. smack the dog a good one, the dog will go "Geez, that was DUMB" and never do it again. (Yeah, some take more than one such discouragement, but that's rare, and normally only happens if the dog is either schizo to start with, or already very spoiled.)
With ALL *forbidden* behaviour, the discouragement has to be significantly stronger than the dog's desire to do it, and has to be strong enough the FIRST time -- otherwise all you've taught the dog is how much pressure it can resist, and resisting pressure is a skill that grows over time. It's like nagging -- the more someone nags, the better you get at ignoring it. Also, the less certain the dog is of your response, the more unsure it becomes of itself -- so the LACK of punishment actually makes the dog MORE likely to react badly in the future, because it simply doesn't know how it is expected to behave. Just like kids, dogs don't like or do well with uncertainty, and they need firm, predictable boundaries so they KNOW how life works.
With one good whack (or bite-back, same thing to the dog), you saved yourself a ton of trouble, and saved the dog a lot of not knowing where its boundaries are, thus making BOTH your lives better in the long run. No different from how most kids need the occasional spanking, and grow up to be more self-disciplined and self-assured for it. As a side benefit, now the dog knows what is acceptable in play -- gently carrying your hand around is fine, biting you is not.
The typical cookie trainer would have said "Oh no, don't hit the dog, have him sit and give him a treat instead" -- and pretty soon the dog would be biting you whenever it wanted a treat. Yeah, it might sit *after* biting you, expecting its treat, but it's a lot more fun to make dad jump and scream first! And yes, dogs DO think that far!!
As to trainers who claim they never discipline the dog -- well, I can take your spoiled little monster and do some pretty severe corrections right in front of you, and you'll never notice anything except that suddenly the dog behaves like a perfect angel (and might be cured for good). Some is technique, which most people can learn if they work at it; some is BEING GOD in the dog's eyes (ie. a creature of a higher order, beyond all thought of challenge), which is at least partly an inborn trait, and unfortunately, not teachable. (Which is why some people can handle a strongwilled dog like a Pitbull, and some can't, no matter how hard they try.)
And the best corrections make the dog believe that HE screwed up, so next time he tries to do what's right.
Last edited by Reziac; 12-24-2007 at 08:41 AM..
Reason: typoes and miscegenated paragraph :)
Wow, you nailed that on the head. (no pun intended) Although they are probably trying to compensate for the lack-thereof in regards to measurement. People should not get dogs just for some type of status symbol, they should get them to be a part of their family.
Exactly so. Get the dog that has the functionality you need (such as a hunting dog) or the family-dog traits that match your household. Don't get it because it makes you feel like a big man.
I'm reminded of a friend who made a good living back in the 1980s, exporting king-cab dual-axle pickup trucks to Japan, where they were a status symbol. Never mind that these vehicles were too big for the roads and not even legal to drive in some areas -- having one taking up the whole front yard showed that the owner was BIG STUFF!!!
I connect with pit bulls because I believe for the most part we share the same image. I have tattoos, long hair, ride a motorcycle and work as a welder. I am also the nicest guy you will ever meet. I am an active member in my church, and alot of people who judge me on my outside appearence would never know that. My pit bulls are the same way. they get dirty looks all the time, but if people only knew how sweet they are they would react differantly. I don't have pit bulls to look tuff, they are just the breed I connect with the most.
And that is what sets you apart. Its not appearance that makes the man/dog/person or whatever. Its the attitude.
The series of replies to the original question does indeed form the big picture w/re to pitbulls.
1. It's the dog, not the breed. (...with reservations...see below)
2. Public perception is, by and large, at least "nervous" if not hostile.
3. The owner's motivation in owning the breed is a big issue.
4. There's not much room for mistakes in controlling the dog or presenting the dog to the neighborhood.
20 years ago, just as the whole pitbull thing was beginning to get huge publicity, we picked a six-week-old out of a cardboard box at a grocery store in California. From the beginning, we punished him (appropriately~~we're not in to beating animals) every time his teeth touched our skin. It didn't matter whether it was playful or accidental. We trained him to understand that it teeth-on-skin was not allowed in any form. He was incredibly intelligent and adapted to the limits we set without question.
As he grew up, there were two things that were part of his entire life as followup discipline. (1) We NEVER let him "win" in any situation where we had to "back him down"...and that occasionally occurred even within our immediate family, which at that time included only adults. This kind of confrontation would only occur perhaps once a year, but very occasionally he would apparently decide that he was not going to accept our authority over him and he would decide to challenge it. He usually backed down immediately with a simple comment in the right tone of voice, but I will never forget the last time he did it with me, some months before he died. He simply was not going to give it up, so I finally told him to go sit in the corner. (That was the punishment we used. He wanted socialization with our family so badly, it basically crushed him to be put in the corner, and we seldom had to do it.) For the first time in his life (9 years) he looked at me with the look of "make me." Scared me half to death and I KNEW I had to back him down, because if I let it go, he would have seriously diminished my authority. I also knew, for the one time in his life, that I dared not take hold of him or his collar to "put him" in the corner, so I knew I had to get it done with body language and my voice. I was home alone with him, and it took about 5 minutes, but I did get it done. Very frightening, because his intelligence and determination in those moments was put up directly against mine and he was literally trying to redraw the line. (2) The second thing was that whenever he was "put in the corner" (never left there for more than 7-8 minutes) he was then released and required to go, on his own, to the person who had put him there and lay down at their feet, whether they were seated or standing. Our command for that was "Apologize". Obviously, we were simply requiring him to submit to us, when he had refused to do so earlier.
Whenever we had guests, we always removed him from "public areas" of the house and yard where guests might normally go, unless they spontaneously requested that he join us, perhaps because they were familiar with the breed and liked them, or wanted to try to get acquainted. We never expected anyone else to deal with him, even casually.
From the time we got him, we always acknowledged to ourselves that WE carried the liability for keeping him within the limits of acceptable behavior and we certainly knew we had legal liability if anything unforeseen happened. I would never get one again. The liability truly is too much.
Basic response to the original issue: you can't make other people responsible for accepting your dog or "being nice about it". It is your liability, regardless of the breed. Your question suggests that somehow you would "relax and move with no concern" if someone indeed said, "oh, we welcome all the pitbulls to our town." That's a crock, because even if someone were to say that, it does not change the big picture. You are responsible for what your dog does and it is not fair to put the responsibility on other people.
Our dog, Bear, died in a terminal seizure after 4-5 years of being on seizure medication. Broke our hearts and we cried for days. He was the absolute best.
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