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Old 11-05-2007, 07:44 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,479,604 times
Reputation: 15493

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian View Post
Don' tax you, don't tax me, tax that fella behind the tree.

Lot of nice places on have outsmarted themselves by these kinda quick fixes.

Ever notice how throughout all posts, and all topics is a dynamic wherein Montana needs something from outsiders whilst hating the thing that comes with it?

Montana as recently as 40 years ago was one of the 10 richest states primarily through agriculture and land intensive extraction. It is now something like the 49th poorest state, with 17 of the 20 poorest counties in America being in Montana (primarily eastern). Your problem is you need outside capital to solve many of your problems (Montana is also one of the few states that recieves more fed money than is sent to Washington), and I would argue you need some outside thinking although I personally am smart enough not to say that in a small town bar on kaorake night lol. One kind of thinking you don't need is this hippie-dippie thinking a lot of these posters moving here have about returning to some Paradise Lost, that probably never was really. Few of us would work as hard and under as much deprivation as our ancestors which was necessary to keep Montana simple. Mostly we want our DSL, the low prices of a Big Box store, etc.....we just wish the scenery was more like Brokeback Mountain while we get the latte.


Ya can't go back boys and girls, and all the good free ideas have been taken
I am glad you wouldn't say that in a bar here, there would probably be a riot (except in Whitefish)!
As for the tax thing, would it be better that we adopt CA or OR tax structure? One that taxes everything that moves and is working on taxing the air?
There are states that tax close to the same way I suggest and they seem to be doing just fine, it spreads the load to everyone who benefits from using the services in this state instead of the locals "hosting" everyone not to mention it would stop the vehicle tax fraud that is done by people in states like CA. Before anyone asks, many people from CA come here to buy big ticket items like motorhomes, create a fraud LLC to register them and then run them back to CA to avoid taxes.
I wonder what was meant by "hippie-dippie thinking"? Is there something in this thread that suggests that?
I advocate the idea of removing the out of state envirowackos from our system and letting the economy at least somewhat return to the agri-logging economy it once had which made the people a decent living and is a renewable resource.
There has to be a better way to do things here other than becoming CA or OR north!
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:49 AM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,839,625 times
Reputation: 2408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart View Post
Well, first thing we need to do is rid ourselves of the evil californians that are migrating up here like locusts!

Just kidding, of course.
Down through the eons mankind has always feared new species. We come from a land far, far away, but intend no "evil". WE COME IN PEACE. A few of us are our escaping our planet because it is doomed for extinction by millions migrating from Michigan, Texas, New York, Mexico, and even a few from Montana. They have no love for the land, but come only for high paying jobs.......and the weather.

It is true we are philosophical mutants, but we prefer to be called "Montanafornians". We mean you no harm.

PS What is the meaning of the communication, "Just kidding". We have never monitored this on previous posts linked to "Californians".
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:04 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,810,826 times
Reputation: 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian View Post
..Few of us would work as hard and under as much deprivation as our ancestors which was necessary to keep Montana simple. Mostly we want our DSL, the low prices of a Big Box store, etc.....we just wish the scenery was more like Brokeback Mountain while we get the latte.
I think this is the fundamental problem.

For Montana to retain being "Montana" people have to be willing to make little money slaving away at hard agricultural or manual labor jobs, typical small town service jobs (waiting, clerking, etc.), and various government jobs. I doubt very much that people actually want to preserve this model.

The problem with introducing new business in Montana is that it increases growth exponentially. For ever new convenience you get more and more people wanting to come in, which in turn creates the need for more and more business. With more people comes more opportunity for new business, and pretty soon you have Missoula.

I'm absolutely opposed to making the mountain states favorable business environments, but then again, I'm willing to take fewer conveniences and services, lesser pay, and fewer jobs to do so. That's my opinion, and most people have their own views.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:41 AM
 
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read 239,166 times
Reputation: 95
JimJ I meant no offense at all toward you or the discussion. The most fundamental of civic discussions is "how do we obtain the money to pay for what we need?". And certainly I would not advocate anyone's incl. California's model of taxation.

But having said that, I will offer a few observations. We all eventually must arrive at a concensus on what we want a society to be like before we tackle the "how and how much" tax discussion. Montana more than anyplace I can think of has a tension, or duality, about this discussion. And I don't mean Montanan's Vs. the "Others", even within yourselves/ourselves we are terribly conflicted. There are good things on the outside, but they bring negative consequences and changes to us and our surroundings and our value systems we dislike (this sounds alarmingly like the Muslim world's feelings toward modernity huh?)

Let me be personal for the purpose of this discussion. A long time ago, my Montana ex-wife's great grandfather was an early settler. He had the wounds. He was hard as the land. He was strong and determined in ways I do not see today. We don't have to be plus it killed most of us young when we try. His great-great grandchildren, my grandchildren think walking a 9 hole par 3 golf course an excursion into the old ways. They and their city friends bounch up and down in front of Tv's connected to X-boxes like they are one of the characters on the screen. They don't know of their past, they don't want to know. It's irrelevant to them. if they stay in Montana, likely, it won't be for the hunting and fishing and simple lifestyle, rather because they have roots, and fear, of the greater world.

We all know of drug problems but that is an ugly part of the legacy of this "I go my own way and the H with you..."

Once again I do not deliberately mean offense, it's because I'm Californian and don't know any better
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:16 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,479,604 times
Reputation: 15493
I appreciate the post T/C and I take no offense... Having been born and raised in CA I understand what you're saying. Thankfully the XBox generation hasn't taken over here as of yet, kids here for the most part are more into being outdoors than sitting in front of a TV screen. Many kids here follow in their parents footsteps and do hard work, chop wood,hunt,dig ditches and scrape for whatever they want and that is not a bad thing on the face of it. I think we need to visit the idea of taxation and how this state is going to prosper and seriously debate it rather than doing what we do now which is pretty much sit and bemoan our current state of affairs.
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Lala Land Montana
83 posts, read 289,222 times
Reputation: 47
Looking at the Alaska forum I see that they have some of the same problems. But they don't seem to mind more folks moving there. Overpopulation and non living wage jobs are problems that we need to solve. I don't think we can solve the low paying jobs without reducing our need to Import foreign goods. Our dollar is now worth less than the Canadian dollar because we have been to greedy. People want that higher income lifestyle so much that collectively we Americans are borrowing 2 Billion dollars a day from foreign countries such as china japan and Korea. Thats why we in Montana as the rest of the states are going to be going through one hell of a recession soon. If we can get back to the basics we might be able to stave off our own impending crash. Building up Montana's infrastructure is a way to do this but how, without raising more taxes. JimJ you have some great points, implementing them will be a problem as a lot of people aren't being hit yet. But its coming. 4 dollars a gallon for fuel, And the cost of every good we consume is going to skyrocket. Part of the cost of fuel is our weak dollar. So it seems that for better or worse, our problems can't totally be solved without solving the countries problems. But on the other had solving our problems is a step in the right direction. I think Montanans will step up and do what needs to be done if the solution is presented in the right way.
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Lala Land Montana
83 posts, read 289,222 times
Reputation: 47
And just so you younger folks know, Every time we have had a recession our manufacturing sector has brought us out of it. Selling cars, steel, planes, and manufacturing the parts for these and other items has been what has saved this nation. Now our cars are built from parts made in Brazil, Japan and Mexico. Our planes are assembled from parts manufactured in Korea, Taiwan, and China. Our oil is produced in Canada, and the middle east. Half of our food is grown in Mexico, and Brazil, and other south American countries. Cattle is imported from Australia and Canada. Computers and all most all electronics from Asia. We do not have the manufacturing infrastructure to compete or rescue us from recession. You want good paying jobs? Try to buy products made in America. Find out from your grocer where your food is coming from, and buy American. World economy my BU**. You want a better life. Buy Montana first, America second and the hell with the rest of the world. When is the last time you saw a foreign country helping us in a disaster?
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Southwest Missouri
1,921 posts, read 5,651,488 times
Reputation: 910
Quote:
Originally Posted by montanahogrider View Post
Building up Montana's infrastructure is a way to do this but how, without raising more taxes.
It seems to me that lowering taxes helps to promote growth of infrastructure.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:21 AM
 
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read 239,166 times
Reputation: 95
Actually our manufacturing sector, as a % of GDP, is as high and strong as it ever was. The difference is we have accomplished this through automation, software systems, and management techniques like outsourcing and lean. We don't compete well in brute force manufacturing on commodity products, but on high end, high value added products we make things no one else can, and enormously profitable.

The other thing that is hard to understand, is that when foreign countries do make products that eventually are sold to Americans is the economics. Often you find the foriegn company is making the product paying royalties to the license holder (American), using American machinary, and can only be maintained or kept current with American skill sets. I have spent many years working in Asian countries and it is very likely they have never made a profit, they have employed lots of their work force, but at a subsidy. Their financial systems are deliberately 'cooked", as full employment and obtaining market share is their goal.

Our (American companies) goal is profit. It makes us more productive, more innovative, and ensures we stay wealthy and competitive in the products we decide to make. Before you reach for you keyboard I want you to honestly consider the following question: The last time you needed some work done, on your house, car, etc. what was the responsiveness of the contractor or company? What was the behavior of the employee doing the job? If you're honest you'll agree you can't get many people to work hard, be responsive, be flexible. This vacuum of work-ethic is what has fueled the illegal immigrant, and otherwise, surge into America. If it is manual labor, hard, thankless, relatively low skilled work...it's done by an immigrant. And yes I fully understand the hidden costs.

So we have found the enemy and it is us.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:21 AM
 
92 posts, read 351,998 times
Reputation: 40
Montanahogrider, You hit the nail on the head! If you want the economy of America to excel then you have to have an economy, not just imports. They only help the super rich remain that way and the super poor remain that way. They do not provide living wage jobs to anyone in America. 8 snake, lowering the interest rates and taxes are only temporary fixes. Pretty soon the bankers aren't making enough for their rich taste buds and the infrastructure of our country is falling apart. If you want to drive on nice roads, have public schools, have emergency services and have city sewer and water then you gotta pay taxes. I do think that MT is due for a sales tax and if it is worded right, I am sure that it could be voted in. But as some have stated earlier, all previous attempts have not said anything about getting rid of income or property taxes and keeping them away.
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