11-03-2007, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimj
GLS,
I do believe that their would be no reduction in services if we went to just a sales tax. Tourists come here year round in droves and would generate quite a bit of revenue. Sales tax is a choice tax because you "choose" to buy things. That being said you would probably tier grocery tax.
.
You have a valid hypothesis, but my concern is that, as always, the "devil is in the details" of implementation. For example, tiering, or even exempting the grocery sales tax appears to be a clear-cut decision in protecting the locals.
However, where do you draw the line? In attempting to shift the burden from Montanans to tourists, it is difficult to separate services that only tourists use, but locals don't. Most resort areas that have decided to add a sales tax to hotels, ski tickets, restaurants, etc. risk reducing total tourist dollars, but more importantly, you selectively injure the Montanan small businesses that provide these tourist services.
Trying to build upon your idea, here is my suggestion. We need to get some hard data about the feasibility of a major policy tax shift. Could you contact someone in Montana government about a pilot study, or someone at the University of Montana. Researching exactly where the break-points would be in property vs sales tax would make an excellent graduate student thesis or publishable paper on urban planning or business economics. We need some valid reasearch data to carry your hypothesis to the next step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimj
...you have to remember that income tax pays for quite a bit in this state so as a part time resident you are not contributing anything but property tax, the full time people are picking up part of the tab for a part timers ability to live here and that's not right.
In the instance of a person living there 3 to 6 months out of the year, but never working there to generate income tax, I agree. But, your original point was for a "non-resident landowner". I can't see how a person visiting his land one or two weeks a year consumes enough services to offset the property tax paid. I will defer on this until we get that research data. For example, would it hurt a carpenter more to continue to pay property tax on a saw, or a new high sales tax on buying new tools?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimj
I don't think that Montana is business friendly, quite the contrary actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
8 SNAKE
What about tax incentives for businesses? I'm not familiar with the infrastructure of Montana, but the general feel I get on this forum is that the area lacks good jobs outside of tourism and construction.
Combining the above quotes helps explain the anger toward newcomers and the developing negative interactions between Montanans and "outsiders". If the survival of the state depends primarily upon the two industries that bring the most people and growth we have a real paradox. Again, since this thread emphasizes "solutions", I suggest approaching whatever local and State business councils are responsible for recruiting new businesses to Montana. There needs to be a concerted campaign to diversify from the two industries most likely to generate complaints from Montanans. You can't keep inviting everyone to dinner, then complain they ate all the food.
11-03-2007, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimj
GLS,
We here in the Flathead have a wonderful county superintendant and underperforming local superintendants. These fifedoms (yes, that's exactly what they have become) are counter productive and expensive. There are 0many school districts with only 1 or 2 schools that have a superintendant that gets $100k plus a year and a full support staff, buses and their support staff and a full school board and their expenses. This is a complete waste of money and just adds layers of crud when anyone tries to get anything done and fosters nepotisim. All this money could be going to pay for the things that really matter and this needs to change!
So, these are my thoughts......
I will accept what you are saying since I don't know anything about the school system there. Therefore, please help me understand where the inequity in resource allocation is coming from. There must be some very strange historical reason that one school district comes out with all the cash. Is the source of the problem political corruption, district size based upon resident income, etc, etc?? If we want to move to a solution and pump the system clean, we have to first identify where the septic lid is.
11-03-2007, 08:24 PM
Location: Southwest Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
GLS
Combining the above quotes helps explain the anger toward newcomers and the developing negative interactions between Montanans and "outsiders". If the survival of the state depends primarily upon the two industries that bring the most people and growth we have a real paradox. Again, since this thread emphasizes "solutions", I suggest approaching whatever local and State business councils are responsible for recruiting new businesses to Montana. There needs to be a concerted campaign to diversify from the two industries most likely to generate complaints from Montanans. You can't keep inviting everyone to dinner, then complain they ate all the food.
I'd really like some of the locals to talk more about this aspect. It would appear to me (an outsider), that tax breaks for residents would only serve as a bandaid, rather than a solution to the problem. The problem seems to be a lack of businesses that offer people good jobs. Attracting new businesses would pump a lot of money into the local and state economies, bring in new tax revenue and help to diversify the employment beyond tourism and construction.
11-04-2007, 01:32 AM
Location: Lala Land Montana
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Well a lot of the problem with attracting new business or industry to Montana is the lock it up and protect it mentality of some of the folks here. We have a lot of natural resources that can be utilized without much impact on our environment. But looking for new tech type industries can be good too. But there is a trade off with new tech vs old. That is that new tech uses just as many natural resources as old tech but also leaves a much more hazardous waste that we have to dispose of. More pollution and global warming anyone? So where do the answers lay? Each small area of Montana is a bit different, in the Northwest is Logging, in the southwest tourism as is the north central, the east farming and ranching and interspersed throughout we have different types of ming, power plants etc. Whatever the solutions we will have to take the combined impact of these industry's and new technology's to heart. Reducing our own footprint helps but we have to have jobs too.
11-04-2007, 05:04 AM
Location: LEAVING CD
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Whitefish has a "tourist tax" and it hasn't slowed tourism in the least but has generated quite a bit of revenue. The problem is that it affects locals as well since they have to pay it. A good example of the negative affects is there is a sports store in Whitefish and another branch in Kalispell, most locals will see something in the store in whitefish and then go to Kalispell to buy it so as not to pay the tax.
There has been many studies done on a sales tax here and in fact it's been placed on the ballot many times and voted down. It's my understanding that it's been defeated because they will not place into law that the property tax and income tax will not be reinstituted unless voted back in. What they say is "we will use the sales tax and stop or lower the property tax but with no guarentee that it won't be brought back". Now you know as well as I do that the minute everyone becomes comfortable with the sales tax the government will slowly leak back in the other taxes claiming they need more money and that has everyone steamed and we don't trust them for obvious reasons.
As for non-residents your property taxes cover a portion of roads,schools,fire and infrastructure and income tax pays the rest. So non-residents get services year round but only pay a portion of the load and needless to say don't contribute to the local or regional economy except when in residence.
I guess what confuses me the most is how business unfriendly this state is but it's house crazy. Houses don't generate tax base,especially spread out ones, business's do so you'd thing they would want more business's here. This is part of the reason that cities are pushing for high density. The more houses they can push onto a plat of land the more it pays for itself in services. 8 houses on an acre is going to add more to the pot than 1 house on that same acre and a business is going to add way more than either...
11-04-2007, 01:55 PM
Location: Southwest Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
montanahogrider
That is that new tech uses just as many natural resources as old tech but also leaves a much more hazardous waste that we have to dispose of. More pollution and global warming anyone?
You're assuming that new businesses would have to involve some type of manufacturing (that produced waste). That's not the case at all.
11-04-2007, 11:32 PM
Location: Lala Land Montana
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Yes Whitefish, West Yellowstone and Red Lodge all have that 3% tourist tax that everyone has to pay. The tax goes to pay for some of the infrastructure so they say. I know Red Lodge uses it to promote more tourism for that area, and pay for the county rodeo grounds. So in some areas folks are paying 3 taxes, property, income, and Tourist taxes. Then the rest of us get hit with a business tax as well. This is what I am afraid of when people start messing around with the taxes. They seem to remember to add the new and forget to reduce the old!
11-05-2007, 05:37 AM
Location: LEAVING CD
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Reputation: 15644
That is exactly why a sales tax has been defeated every time it comes up. I haven't run into anyone who is against the sales tax idea, they just want something more than a promise that property tax,income tax and business tax will be permanently lowered or removed. We all know how much a pols promise is worth!
11-05-2007, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
montanahogrider
Tell us what you think the problems facing Montana are, and how you would solve them. Remember that any decision you make will affect Montanans for the good and bad.
Well, first thing we need to do is rid ourselves of the evil californians that are migrating up here like locusts!
Just kidding, of course.
11-05-2007, 07:06 AM
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read
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Reputation: 95
Don' tax you, don't tax me, tax that fella behind the tree.
Lot of nice places on have outsmarted themselves by these kinda quick fixes.
Ever notice how throughout all posts, and all topics is a dynamic wherein Montana needs something from outsiders whilst hating the thing that comes with it?
Montana as recently as 40 years ago was one of the 10 richest states primarily through agriculture and land intensive extraction. It is now something like the 49th poorest state, with 17 of the 20 poorest counties in America being in Montana (primarily eastern). Your problem is you need outside capital to solve many of your problems (Montana is also one of the few states that recieves more fed money than is sent to Washington), and I would argue you need some outside thinking although I personally am smart enough not to say that in a small town bar on kaorake night lol. One kind of thinking you don't need is this hippie-dippie thinking a lot of these posters moving here have about returning to some Paradise Lost, that probably never was really. Few of us would work as hard and under as much deprivation as our ancestors which was necessary to keep Montana simple. Mostly we want our DSL, the low prices of a Big Box store, etc.....we just wish the scenery was more like Brokeback Mountain while we get the latte.
Ya can't go back boys and girls, and all the good free ideas have been taken
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Most Common Occupations - Law enforcement workers including supervisors (%)
Most Common Occupations - Food preparation and serving related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Personal care and service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)