What do u think about native americans? (Billings, Dixon: income, job)

[Drover]

Originally Posted by jimj

True enough, but at what point is the past the past? 100 years, 200? All cultures have done really bad things and killed people who didn't deserve it, Indians included. So at what point do we move past what happened and get to where we are today? And, more to the point how does a seperate country within a country benefit anyone at this point except the heads of the government of course?

I don't think it's too much to ask that those who nearly had their societies and cultures wiped off the face of the earth be allowed to maintain small patches of sovereignty in order to make sure that what was almost accomplished by force not be accomplished by attrition. Whatever faults the reservation system has, cultural preservation has been the benefit, and those whose culture and heritage have been at least partially preserved are the ones who benefit.

[jimj]

Ok, why does it need to be on a "patch of sovereignty"? A few cultures were almost wiped out so far and they still survive here without their own country.

[Drover]

I already explained why more than once, and I'm not inclined to repeat myself yet again. Go back and re-read.

[JoeJoeMan]

Just for the records ------
Even though my take on native americans is that they just happen to be asians who got here before europeans, the do have a history rich hisotry that shouldn't be dismissed and demands respect, I do admire them in many ways....in particular their love and respect for the land, we can or should take a few lessons from them, we'd have alot nice montana these days if we did.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

Just for the records ------
Even though my take on native americans is that they just happen to be asians who got here before europeans, the do have a history rich hisotry that shouldn't be dismissed and demands respect, I do admire them in many ways....in particular their love and respect for the land, we can or should take a few lessons from them, we'd have alot nice montana these days if we did.

Absolutely! But I don't understand why it has to be done from a "sovereign nation". In most major cities there's a Japan town,China town,little Italy etc that are fully immersed in their particular culture down to the street signs and language spoken on the street. All I suggested was creating cities out of the reservations......

[Drover]

Originally Posted by jimj

Absolutely! But I don't understand why it has to be done from a "sovereign nation". In most major cities there's a Japan town,China town,little Italy etc that are fully immersed in their particular culture down to the street signs and language spoken on the street. All I suggested was creating cities out of the reservations......

Can you tell me where Japantown is in Chicago? I can tell you where it used to be. My best friend's grandparents used to live there. Now yuppies and gay men live there. And my friend, all of two generations removed from Japan, speaks zero Japanese and knows next to nothing about Japanese culture.

Let me take you on a tour of Greektown around Jackson and Halsted. Lots of nice little Greek restaurants. But do you notice any Greek people living there? Maybe those that run the restaurants. The rest have dispersed.

Now, let me show you Little Italy. Lots of cute little Italian restaurants some Italian ice stands in the summer. Even a handful of Italian people living there -- of course, very few of them speak Italian any more and they're now just a handful in a sea of Mexicans and generic-white students from UIC. Most of the Italians have dispersed.

While we're in the area, let's head next door to the Pilsen neighborhood, named after the Czech city of the same name. Pilsen is a proud beacon of ethnic pride and heritage, including schools, restaurants and one of the best fine arts museums in the city. Pilsen is a central focus for its primary ethnicity to those of said ethnicity from all over city. Oh wait, did I forget to mention that the ethnic heritage that Pilsen now serves is Mexican? Where'd all the Bohemians/Czechs go?

Next, let's head down to Beverly on the South Side. Here's what's left of the Irish culture that used to dominate the area: a rambunctious parade once a year in mid-March, a few Pat-and-Mike pubs that serve Guinness on tap and call themselves Irish, and an Irish population that has been diluted to about 20% from its original 80%-plus.

Then we'll head up to the North side to Andersonville. Cute little Swedish bakery on Clark Street, not too far from the Svea restaurant and the Swedish-American museum. Wanna guess how many actual Swedes live in the neighborhood today? (Hint: it's close to zero.)

Now let's go over to Lincoln Square, where two German restaurants and a German deli have closed down in the last couple years. Why? Because the neighborhood is losing its German ethnicity as the older generations die off (the younger generations already moved away) replaced by ethnically ambiguous white yuppies who have no interest in maintaining the German flavor of the neighborhood.

The bottom line is, a lot of the ethnic neighborhoods in the bigger cities are either long gone, are on on the verge of being gone, or are simply façades that look like ethnic neighborhoods but aren't. That is what the various Indian tribes can look forward to if they are forced integrate into the broader society -- dilution into virtual nonexistence. That is why reservations are so important. This dilution of white and Asian ethnicities and cultures into a greater American culture is no huge loss because those cultures are still alive and well in their countries of origin. When the same thing happens to Indian tribes, they are gone forever.

Too many of us have already been Europeanized, including me. My father's side of the family decided to do what you suggest every tribal member do: integrate into the broader American society and culture. And now, I know next to nothing about that aspect of my heritage. Even my father knows next to nothing about it. And now my grandparents, who were intimately familiar with their heritage, are dead. They took it with them and did not pass it on.

I'm not alone. The same thing has happened to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of us. So I hope you can understand why those who have managed to hang on to their culture and heritage -- my culture and heritage -- are not so keen to place themselves in a position to lose it forever via the same process.

[truckingbronco]

Originally Posted by Drover

Can you tell me where Japantown is in Chicago? I can tell you where it used to be. My best friend's grandparents used to live there. Now yuppies and gay men live there. And my friend, all of two generations removed from Japan, speaks zero Japanese and knows next to nothing about Japanese culture.

Let me take you on a tour of Greektown around Jackson and Halsted. Lots of nice little Greek restaurants. But do you notice any Greek people living there? Maybe those that run the restaurants. The rest have dispersed.

Now, let me show you Little Italy. Lots of cute little Italian restaurants some Italian ice stands in the summer. Even a handful of Italian people living there -- of course, very few of them speak Italian any more and they're now just a handful in a sea of Mexicans and generic-white students from UIC. Most of the Italians have dispersed.

While we're in the area, let's head next door to the Pilsen neighborhood, named after the Czech city of the same name. Pilsen is a proud beacon of ethnic pride and heritage, including schools, restaurants and one of the best fine arts museums in the city. Pilsen is a central focus for its primary ethnicity to those of said ethnicity from all over city. Oh wait, did I forget to mention that the ethnic heritage that Pilsen now serves is Mexican? Where'd all the Bohemians/Czechs go?

Next, let's head down to Beverly on the South Side. Here's what's left of the Irish culture that used to dominate the area: a rambunctious parade once a year in mid-March, a few Pat-and-Mike pubs that serve Guinness on tap and call themselves Irish, and an Irish population that has been diluted to about 20% from its original 80%-plus.

Then we'll head up to the North side to Andersonville. Cute little Swedish bakery on Clark Street, not too far from the Svea restaurant and the Swedish-American museum. Wanna guess how many actual Swedes live in the neighborhood today? (Hint: it's close to zero.)

Now let's go over to Lincoln Square, where two German restaurants and a German deli have closed down in the last couple years. Why? Because the neighborhood is losing its German ethnicity as the older generations die off (the younger generations already moved away) replaced by ethnically ambiguous white yuppies who have no interest in maintaining the German flavor of the neighborhood.

The bottom line is, a lot of the ethnic neighborhoods in the bigger cities are either long gone, are on on the verge of being gone, or are simply façades that look like ethnic neighborhoods but aren't. That is what the various Indian tribes can look forward to if they are forced integrate into the broader society -- dilution into virtual nonexistence. That is why reservations are so important. This dilution of white and Asian ethnicities and cultures into a greater American culture is no huge loss because those cultures are still alive and well in their countries of origin. When the same thing happens to Indian tribes, they are gone forever.

Too many of us have already been Europeanized, including me. My father's side of the family decided to do what you suggest every tribal member do: integrate into the broader American society and culture. And now, I know next to nothing about that aspect of my heritage. Even my father knows next to nothing about it. And now my grandparents, who were intimately familiar with their heritage, are dead. They took it with them and did not pass it on.

I'm not alone. The same thing has happened to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of us. So I hope you can understand why those who have managed to hang on to their culture and heritage -- my culture and heritage -- are not so keen to place themselves in a position to lose it forever via the same process.

Thanks for the tour of Chicago's restaurants but it wasn't enough to convince me that we need reservations. If you go to any reservation in Montana, or anywhere for that matter, you will see plenty of non-native influence as well. The idea that we need soveriegn nations to preserve native culture is not true, if anything it alienates the native culture from everyone outside the reservation.

The only way to preserve a culture is to teach it to younger generations.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by truckingbronco

Thanks for the tour of Chicago's restaurants but it wasn't enough to convince me that we need reservations. If you go to any reservation in Montana, or anywhere for that matter, you will see plenty of non-native influence as well. The idea that we need soveriegn nations to preserve native culture is not true, if anything it alienates the native culture from everyone outside the reservation.

The only way to preserve a culture is to teach it to younger generations.

It wasn't a tour of restaurants, smartass. There was a far broader point that you apparently missed (or rather, didn't want to acknowledge). If you want to continue to be flippant and dismissive, let me know so I can just ignore you from here on out.

In the meantime, let me ask -- which is it? Are the reservations isolated or are they already subject to non-native influence? And do you suppose it would easier to teach and preserve one's culture if it is immersed in itself or just one tiny part of a huge cultural patchwork? I think the dilution of cultures that has already taken place in this country should provide a crystal-clear answer.

[jimj]

As was stated above, "few of the young people speak the language anymore" and "Because the neighborhood is losing its German ethnicity as the older generations die off" whose fault is that? Could it be that it's not being taught to the younger generation or that the younger people aren't interested? Attempting to insulate people doesn't tend to work very well since eventually they see there's a bigger world outside the "fence" and unless you can force them to stay people will rebel and leave. Even for us "non natives" it is a struggle to get our kids to see their culture because there's a big wide world out there competing for their attention via the 'net and tv. Could we lock them in the house (reservation) and force feed it to them? Sure, but how's that any different than inprisonment or what was done 100 years ago?
We are a homogonous society built on the idea that everyone can be from anywhere and still do well here but walling yourself off from everyone else and demanding more than everyone else gets just creates animosity and resentment.
To be completely honest most people off the reservation really don't care about what happened 100 years ago and what agreements have been broken or kept, they look at their daily lives and what impacts them and even though if asked would agree it was a horrible time in our history would tell you that was then and this is now and it's time to move on and use the oppertunities that have been given like everyone else.
I'm not minimizing what was done, just stating what I hear people have said over the years.

[truckingbronco]

Originally Posted by Drover

It wasn't a tour of restaurants, smartass. There was a far broader point that you apparently missed (or rather, didn't want to acknowledge). If you want to continue to be flippant and dismissive, let me know so I can just ignore you from here on out.

In the meantime, let me ask -- which is it? Are the reservations isolated or are they already subject to non-native influence? And do you suppose it would easier to teach and preserve one's culture if it is immersed in itself or just one tiny part of a huge cultural patchwork? I think the dilution of cultures that has already taken place in this country should provide a crystal-clear answer.

Both-the culture is isolated to the reservation and there is outside influence on the reservation. I used to live 20 miles from the res and there was no native influence, however; I could take a short drive to Polson and see plenty of outside influence. Is that really difficult to understand or were you just looking for a technicality to try and devalue my argument?

Also, the dillution of culture is not a uniquely American trend; when I last visited Germany I didn't see anyone eating brats and sporting lederhosen.