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Old 05-21-2012, 07:11 PM
 
20 posts, read 56,461 times
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Greetings all,

I recently returned to college, completed an A.A. degree and want to pursue a bachelor’s in the biological sciences, specifically wildlife biology/management. I know I want to live and work in the Rocky Mountain west. Given this, it is important to get out there and get familiarized with the local terrain, wildlife and vegetation, etc., experience that would be required for jobs post-graduation, and which a wildlife program anywhere else won’t prepare me for. I have applied to MSU in Bozeman. I would be an out-of-state transfer student and would not have established residency (one year) by the time classes began, so would probably take a lighter load until then just to keep the costs down.

We own our home here and would need to either sell it or put it up for rent.

My job will let me transfer out of state after a year’s service, which would be in early November. Of course, there would need to be an opening for me. I would still need a secondary source of income that would work well with going to school. My wife would need to find a job as well, and she has a lot of experience in business, particularly the banking industry. She has two bachelor’s degrees (Business Administration, Communications).

We have no kids yet, but my wife is the legal guardian of her autistic brother. We have already made contact with folks in the area who should be able to assist us with that, given that we will both need to work while I’m in school. We also have several pets.

I really do not see anyone renting to us with the pets. We’d need good jobs to get a house. It’s hard to get good jobs without being there and having a place to stay while you look for work. It will be hard (I think impossible) to get a place to stay with the pets we have.

We have access to a property in North Dakota (farm house my Dad grew up in and now owns). It’s not real close, but it has occurred to me that it could potentially be a staging area for us as we transitioned into life in Montana. It would be a place we could have the pets until we secured a place in or near Bozeman, and allow my wife and brother-in-law to live rent-free temporarily until we got all of our ducks in a row. Close enough for her to look for work in MT while I went to school, and for me to be able to see them some on weekends at least (a good weather plan, wouldn’t try this in winter). By the end of the first semester, we should have things squared away.

We are conservative and not the sort that wants to come to Montana and have it accommodate us. We will do all of the adapting. We don’t want Montana to change a bit.

Any helpful advice would be most appreciated! I will be happy to provide any more info anyone feels may be helpful in advising us. Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:29 AM
 
Location: C-U metro
1,368 posts, read 3,206,169 times
Reputation: 1192
I would hope that you have read other postings and learned that Bozangeles has attrocious costs of living and wages are depressed. The economy largely consists of MSU and remittances from Bozeman people working in the oil patch. The financial industry in Montana is centered in Billings and Kalispell so your wife would probably not have much luck finding decent employment.

If I were in your shoes, I would work in ND for a while to gain residency and attend NDSU or UND. You have the hard part done already, a place to live. The MSU program isn't as highly rated as you think and you and your wife are much more likely to be employed in ND than Bozeman. What you want to do is also a lowly paid position, but nice work if you can get employed. Don't pay astronomical sums of money for that degree.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:26 AM
 
5,401 posts, read 6,482,020 times
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Since your wife will be principal wage earner and is readily employable, go where she finds best job. Find a few offers to choose from and posters here can be more helpful.

Commuting from North Dakota unless near major airport would be taxing on any relationship. And most airfare to/from Montana is high. I would not be inclined to do it for schooling. Plus winter in North Dakota is brutal.

If you want to work in the Rockies I think you are wise to attend college in them. You will make industry contacts and do internships and studies in comparable places to where you wish to eventually work. You want to study bears you need be where bears live...etc.

Do not let naysayers discourage you, come give it a whirl.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:14 PM
 
Location: NW Montana
451 posts, read 994,914 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclid View Post

My job will let me transfer out of state after a year’s service, which would be in early November. Of course, there would need to be an opening for me. I would still need a secondary source of income that would work well with going to school. My wife would need to find a job as well, and she has a lot of experience in business, particularly the banking industry. She has two bachelor’s degrees (Business Administration, Communications).
...

...
We have access to a property in North Dakota (farm house my Dad grew up in and now owns). It’s not real close, but it has occurred to me that it could potentially be a staging area for us as we transitioned into life in Montana. It would be a place we could have the pets until we secured a place in or near Bozeman, and allow my wife and brother-in-law to live rent-free temporarily until we got all of our ducks in a row. Close enough for her to look for work in MT while I went to school, and for me to be able to see them some on weekends at least (a good weather plan, wouldn’t try this in winter). By the end of the first semester, we should have things squared away.

...

Any helpful advice would be most appreciated! I will be happy to provide any more info anyone feels may be helpful in advising us. Thanks!
It certainly seems you've given this a good deal of thought, which is a good thing. Based upon that assumption, and the content you've provided, I'll offer a couple of observations. [As usual, my advice is worth what I charge for it, so don't complain to me if things don't work out according to my predictions - our complaint department is on permanent leave of absence...]

1) You sound like you are ready to adapt to circumstances - almost a sure sign that you will adapt - which is good, since, in Montana, failure to adapt is most often followed by exiting via the nearest boarder back in the direction folks arrived from.

2) The 'commuting' plan you mention is 'doable'. Sure it's a strain, but if you are wanting the surroundings you describe, a bit of sacrifice is sometimes necessary. Heck, I have neighbors here in Lake and Flathead Counties who are 'commuting' to North Dakota for work. Have a backup plan and (you may tire of my saying so...) be adaptable.

3) Now as for those pets (once you get away from your Dad's place in ND), don't be so quick to discount the rental possibility. Unless you are secretly keeping a critter or critters from the Dark Continent (thinking here of a Rhinocerous, elephant, African lion or some such) you can probably find rental digs that will accommodate the menagerie. But you won't find them listed in the newspaper or phone book, unless you are made of money. Instead, capitalize on the fact of your being caregivers to a disadvantaged person (your B-I-L). You mentioned that you are already in touch with some supportive/affiliated types in the State? Seek help from them - the very questions you need answered that you are asking here. Why? Well, when you think about it, big-hearted folks tend to be big-hearted (helpful) across the board. Not only that, they appreciate other big-hearted folks which you and your wife obviously are. So don't hesitate to ask them if they happen to know someone with a ranch outside of town who may have an affordable cottage, bunkhouse, whatever for rent. You may be surprised at the number of 'secret' such places that exist that most out-of-staters will never know about.

Anyhow, Bozeman can be pretty spendy 'cause it's so trendy, but there's places 20 or so miles out of town that could work out. And as for the banking industry, well, Bozeman has banks, and branches and that town is growing like a wildfire.

And while wages in Montana are often considerably less than for similar work in other parts of the Country, there are the trade offs that many of us have made in order to enjoy what we perceive to be a better quality of life here.

You've got the right attitude and approach (and you at least seem adaptable ), so give it your best shot.

One man's opinion, anyway.

Good Luck,

mg
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:28 PM
 
20 posts, read 56,461 times
Reputation: 18
I would hope that you have read other postings and learned that Bozangeles has attrocious costs of living and wages are depressed. The economy largely consists of MSU and remittances from Bozeman people working in the oil patch. The financial industry in Montana is centered in Billings and Kalispell so your wife would probably not have much luck finding decent employment.

From the look of things, it's not much different than where we are now, and there's no sales tax in MT (but that's probably a moot point because we have no state income tax here and MT does). Housing is really about the same (sounds like values in Bozeman have gone down a bit lately) and wages for the kind of things we've got experience in are in the same ballpark as what we'd receive here. And while she has worked in banking, my wife has always done office administrator-type of work that translates easily to other businesses. She is actually currently a church secretary. Just the other day I saw several job listings on the Bozeman Daily Chronicle website that she could apply for, and a couple that were up my alley too (including one that would work well with going to school during the day). I realize that there being openings and actually getting the jobs are two different things, though.


If I were in your shoes, I would work in ND for a while to gain residency and attend NDSU or UND. You have the hard part done already, a place to live. The MSU program isn't as highly rated as you think and you and your wife are much more likely to be employed in ND than Bozeman. What you want to do is also a lowly paid position, but nice work if you can get employed. Don't pay astronomical sums of money for that degree.

The problem here is that the farm is in a little two stoplight town (and they just got the second not all that long ago) in the middle of nowhere. The closest city is Bismarck, which is roughly 100 miles away (but nobody there thinks much of it, no big deal to them to go that far for a Wal-Mart). And if you think finding a job in Bozeman would be tough... try there where my Dad is from.

The University of North Dakota (Grand Forks) and North Dakota State University (Fargo) both offer degrees in what I'm interested in, but the closer of the two would be NDSU, but the NDSU curriculum looks rather weak when compared with those at Montana State University, the University of Wyoming, the University of Montana and the University of North Dakota (yes, listed in my order of preference). I would lump the University of Idaho in with NDSU if anyone was wondering.

Both ND schools would be a lot closer to the farm than Bozeman, Laramie, etc.

BTW, just found out this afternoon that I have been accepted at Montana State University! I have an app in to the University of Wyoming also, but keep coming back to MSU. Have heard a lot of good things about "U-Dub", but have been really impressed with the several people I've been in contact with at MSU, and they just really seem to have their act together and are very prompt and courteous. Haven't heard hardly a peep out of UW, and though they must have had my transcripts a while now, they haven't processed them. MSU said it's not big deal to defer to a later semester if I need to start with them later for some reason.

The field of study is a competitive one to be sure, but there are some pretty nice-paying jobs to be had too (again, landing them is another thing of course). I regularly check several sites that list them to get a feel for what's out there and what employers are looking for. I'm a glass is half full person, but there are a lot of things I could end up doing with that degree, and I think I would be very happy doing all of them. Pay is second to job satisfaction for me for the most part (and in this line of work you tend to get less time in the field and spend more time pushing paper as you move up the ladder, which by the time I got there might be a welcome thing given my age by then, who knows, haha), but of course I need to make ends meet. Not someone that has to have a lot of material things to be happy, though.


Commuting from North Dakota unless near major airport would be taxing on any relationship. And most airfare to/from Montana is high. I would not be inclined to do it for schooling. Plus winter in North Dakota is brutal.

Worse than Montana winters? Actually in that part of ND they don't seem to have it as bad as they used to... must be global warming. Not saying it's a walk in the park, though. Windy much of the time, and strong winds at that... can be bitter cold... not as much snow lately as they used to get, though. But probably not much different than Montana (if I had to guess, I'd bet their stuff is more like a Laramie/Cheyenne plains sort of winter?). The commuting thing could not be daily but I could be home some. It would hopefully be a very temporary thing, and not something to try in the winter.


If you want to work in the Rockies I think you are wise to attend college in them. You will make industry contacts and do internships and studies in comparable places to where you wish to eventually work. You want to study bears you need be where bears live...etc. Do not let naysayers discourage you, come give it a whirl.

Everyone that is already doing what I want to do keeps stressing that very thing - that it is crucial to get some hands-on experience in that area. BTW, Casey Anderson from Nat Geo Wild told me that too, which was pretty neat - I believe he lives in the Emigrant, MT area near Livingston. ND flora and fauna should not be all that different in many respects, but far eastern ND is still a far cry from having the Bridgers and Absarokas practically on your doorstep. There are still differences, still things unique to one and not the other, different terrain and different ecosystems as you gain elevation, etc.

The 'commuting' plan you mention is 'doable'. Sure it's a strain, but if you are wanting the surroundings you describe, a bit of sacrifice is sometimes necessary. Heck, I have neighbors here in Lake and Flathead Counties who are 'commuting' to North Dakota for work.

Exactly - I'll do what I have to do, and it may not be easy at first. Nothing worth doing usually is. And that commute you mentioned is pretty much the kind of distance I'm referring to also, if I have my geography and drive times right.

Now as for those pets (once you get away from your Dad's place in ND), don't be so quick to discount the rental possibility. Unless you are secretly keeping a critter or critters from the Dark Continent (thinking here of a Rhinocerous, elephant, African lion or some such) you can probably find rental digs that will accommodate the menagerie.

Menagerie is a good word - got 4 cats and 2 dogs. Plus 2 other cats I helped out of jams that will need to find homes by then. But it would be 6, and people seem to be really hesitant to allow cats, let alone 4. Thanks for the advice, just because I'm a little concerned about it doesn't mean I won't do my darnedest to find something.

Anyhow, Bozeman can be pretty spendy 'cause it's so trendy, but there's places 20 or so miles out of town that could work out. And as for the banking industry, well, Bozeman has banks, and branches and that town is growing like a wildfire.

It looks like the only bank we have in common here and there would be Wells Fargo. Now if my wife could get on with them (pretty good benefits it looks like!), and they let her transfer out of state when she hadn't been there very long...

One of my jobs will let me transfer out there if there's a need out there and I've been with them a year or more... no guarantee of that, though. Closest openings last time I checked were Butte, Missoula and Great Falls. But they are all about company seniority and hiring from within if they can.

You've got the right attitude and approach (and you at least seem adaptable ), so give it your best shot.

I work hard, have integrity, am not high maintenance and don't want everything handed to me. I want to preserve things for future generations but I am hard right, not hard left (no environmentalist whack job here). I'd be less than honest if I said I really know what I'm in for with the winters, but I've had a taste of it at least, and I can be pretty stubborn. My wife did grow up with harsh winters though so she's not as phased by all that (or just doesn't know any better yet, haha).

Been reading on here and the Wyoming forum a lot, just haven't said much yet. Thanks all for your comments, they are much appreciated!

Last edited by Heraclid; 05-22-2012 at 04:08 PM..
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: C-U metro
1,368 posts, read 3,206,169 times
Reputation: 1192
Good luck to you then. You've at least thought it through.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,259 posts, read 14,631,790 times
Reputation: 3459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclid View Post
Greetings all,

I recently returned to college, completed an A.A. degree and want to pursue a bachelor’s in the biological sciences, specifically wildlife biology/management. I know I want to live and work in the Rocky Mountain west. Given this, it is important to get out there and get familiarized with the local terrain, wildlife and vegetation, etc., experience that would be required for jobs post-graduation, and which a wildlife program anywhere else won’t prepare me for. I have applied to MSU in Bozeman. I would be an out-of-state transfer student and would not have established residency (one year) by the time classes began, so would probably take a lighter load until then just to keep the costs down.

We own our home here and would need to either sell it or put it up for rent.

My job will let me transfer out of state after a year’s service, which would be in early November. Of course, there would need to be an opening for me. I would still need a secondary source of income that would work well with going to school. My wife would need to find a job as well, and she has a lot of experience in business, particularly the banking industry. She has two bachelor’s degrees (Business Administration, Communications).

We have no kids yet, but my wife is the legal guardian of her autistic brother. We have already made contact with folks in the area who should be able to assist us with that, given that we will both need to work while I’m in school. We also have several pets.

I really do not see anyone renting to us with the pets. We’d need good jobs to get a house. It’s hard to get good jobs without being there and having a place to stay while you look for work. It will be hard (I think impossible) to get a place to stay with the pets we have.

We have access to a property in North Dakota (farm house my Dad grew up in and now owns). It’s not real close, but it has occurred to me that it could potentially be a staging area for us as we transitioned into life in Montana. It would be a place we could have the pets until we secured a place in or near Bozeman, and allow my wife and brother-in-law to live rent-free temporarily until we got all of our ducks in a row. Close enough for her to look for work in MT while I went to school, and for me to be able to see them some on weekends at least (a good weather plan, wouldn’t try this in winter). By the end of the first semester, we should have things squared away.

We are conservative and not the sort that wants to come to Montana and have it accommodate us. We will do all of the adapting. We don’t want Montana to change a bit.

Any helpful advice would be most appreciated! I will be happy to provide any more info anyone feels may be helpful in advising us. Thanks!
I am wondering if I would want to move twice, that would be the deciding factor for me. I am also thinking that there are more jobs in ND and you could do online for now, having free housing is money in the bank, good luck!
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:40 PM
 
20 posts, read 56,461 times
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Hey flyingcat2k! I remember you... we talked about vet school stuff on here once upon a time. Yep, hate to say it, but I'm exercising my fall-back option. Was having a hard time in the higher chemistries and with calculus, hadn't taken physics yet... wanted to just get my A.A. without shooting myself in the foot as far as trying to transfer goes. Did that, going for a wildlife degree (like I was intending to do all along as far as the bachelor's is concerned), but not the more rigorous pre-vet type of track. Can take one semester of physics, applied calculus (more application, less theory, more geared to what I'm after anyway, instead of having to take the version of it math and engineering majors take), depending on the school maybe just one organic chem and/or biochem. This way I can get my bachelor's and be in good academic standing, then still go for the vet option if I want to afterward by taking a few more things, seeing how it goes, and maybe apply to vet schools if it goes alright. Options are good.

I have learned that vet school grads don't have it too easy much of the time though, they don't make what they thought they would, many work two jobs, etc. And of course the student debt is tremendous. I'm not fresh out of high school so getting saddled with it at my age would be tougher still. It's not unrealistic to think I could earn more with a wildlife degree (especially if I got a master's) than I could as a vet. Can also be out in the field more, which I was always interested in doing.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:14 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,269 posts, read 13,785,826 times
Reputation: 18093
If you are living in Bozeman stay away from Management Associates. I lived in Bozeman from 2000 to 2005 and I found the town to be anti-student. This is in regards to landlords and with jobs. If you have a place to keep your pets in North Dakota I would recommend you do that and live in graduate housing and try to work on campus. As others have said, the cost of living in Bozeman is high as well. I hate to write something so negative, but this was my experience. That being said, MSU is a good school.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:01 PM
 
20 posts, read 56,461 times
Reputation: 18
I am wondering if I would want to move twice, that would be the deciding factor for me. I am also thinking that there are more jobs in ND and you could do online for now, having free housing is money in the bank, good luck!

When it comes to the part of ND I'm talking about, not so much. It's too bad Dad didn't grow up in Bismarck! The farm house is not in the west part of the state where the current boom is, and it's not close to any large towns or cities. It's a tiny town and not a lot of jobs (if any). And we'd need two of them at least. It's not somewhere I can transfer to with one of my current jobs, and the idea is to hopefully get us all in the same place quickly, not be hours apart over the course of several semesters. It is 3 and 4 hours from NDSU and UND, respectively.

I don't know how many of the relevant courses would be available online at different institutions, but I much prefer classes in person and don't think what I'm doing lends itself well to that sort of learning, as much of it would be hands-on, in-the-field sort of stuff.

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