Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes, it's been civil, yet I am sometimes puzzled at the hate I read for certain areas on this web site (not just Montana). For example, I grew up in a Southern state, one to which I have absolutely zero interest in returning. Yet I don't constantly bash it. I don't talk about it at all, except to say once in a while I miss a certain food or whatever. Why do some people bash a certain locale over and over and over, especially when they only lived in one spot out of an entire state for a very short period of time?
Also, sometimes people will post for help here (not talking about any one poster, just thinking of posts over the years) about places to live or places to visit. To every suggestion, they have nothing but negative things to say. They remind me of that George Strait song, "I Hate Everything." And like the song, after listening to their hatred, I'm thankful that I don't feel the same way.
We're entitled to our opinions. But to return to the original post in this thread, I think it's very telling that in that survey Montana was rated #1. No, it's not perfect. Yes, I'd say we're largely a stubborn bunch. And I do have to say that it's AOK with me if anyone hates Montana -- goodness knows some of my own family members do and aren't crazy about visiting us. ;-) I don't like where they live but they love it.
If you live in eastern Washington, how does your view count as far as how Montanan's feel about Montana?
My views on Washington would be just as irrelevant on a poll asking how Washingtoners felt about their state.
I must admit I was surprised that WyoEagle was the one to start this thread as that poster has never made any bones about having issues with Montana that didn't align with what they thought was important, (mainly high wages) and I had thought this was probably a troll thread to try and pick fights or to encourage others living outside Montana to post what is wrong with the state in their view.
The jury is still out on this in my view.
Alaska also scored very high, and also has many of the same problems Montana does, limits imposed by the feds on using what we have to make a better life here.
Every time we try to make the jobs here, we get shut down in court. See the power plant in Great Falls, the attacks on coal, mining and timber production.
Because of our geographical location, shipping is expensive, so although we have the qualified people and raw materials, everything is shipped out to states closer to shipping to be manufactured into value added products instead of being made here.
Don't try to start a manufacturing business here, you will get hit with lawsuits until you don't have any more money to fight.
This is a playground for the rich and shameless, and a dumping ground for trustifarians so they don't embarrass their rich folks back home anymore.
In spite of that, People that can survive here have a deep pride in their history and tradition of self reliance. They are proud they don't all buckle under to special interest groups like the eco-terrorists, that they refuse to leave no matter what the out of state interests do, including infesting the place with wolves to try and destroy the wildlife for the hunting industry, and the livestock of the ranchers.
Montanan's are a proud, independent people that don't like others telling them what they should do or believe.
Yes, outside city limits and reservation borders, this is a very conservative state. We work hard, but earn what we have. We struggle against the climate and outside forces every day just to keep what we have and try to earn a living in spite of that.
Montanan's have a very special bond with the land. It shapes us, it tests us, it strengthens and inspires us, and yes, regularly, it tries to kill us, but because we live close to our land, it's very precious to us, and we are one with the land.
Yes we are proud of our land and our state, there's a lot to be proud of. No it isn't a place for everyone, the living here can be harsh and unforgiving, but at the same time it is what makes the people strong and willing to work hard and help their neighbors with whatever they have to give.
If you bad mouth, complain or whine, you won't find a lot of acceptance. You have to hold yourself to a much higher standard to simply survive here.
When you put down the state, the natives and those that have moved here to become Montanan's will take offense, but usually instead of a punch in the nose, you are simply ignored, and you will find it a very lonely place to live.
Montana is a very small community connected by a lot of roads. Although the state has several diverse regions with very different people living there, we are all Montanan's, and proud of it.
If anyone doesn't like that, tough. You can have your museums of modern art, Nothing beats the alpenglow on the mountains at sunrise for beauty.
You can have your snails and overpriced tidbits on a fancy plate served by snooty waiters in tuxedos and the high priced fermented grape juice, I'll take fresh elk steaks cooked over a campfire with a cold bottle of beer chilled in a mountain stream over that anytime.
Montana IS the LAST BEST PLACE, and we are lucky enough to realize that. You stay where you are happy, and we will all be better off.
If you started appreciating your state instead of worrying about mine, then perhaps you would rank higher on that poll
That's the kicker. Where I live--in a glacial river valley with, yes, big mountains and wilderness--is no less stunning than MT. And in some places, more so. But, the quality of life is better due to services and infrastructure and proper planning. Like I said, being a long time Wyoming person, it surprised me.
See, here's the thing. I frequently run around with cow and horse poo on my boots (tiny town of about 1500 folks), but there's more to quality of life than that. Where I used to be very anti-liberal, I've since changed my mind. I'm all about balance. (The stinkin' libruls in my valley frequently buy up choice, private lands and >gasp< put those lands into a trust, and then open those lands to the public for enjoyment.)
How 'bout that big lake up north? You know the one. Gee it's nice to look at, but just try to find more than a couple spots one can walk down and enjoy it. We have old fire and logging roads up here that are not shut down (as I read Montanans frequently complain about), but are left open for people to enjoy for access to wilderness and hunting. And most people treat the land with respect.
I love Montana, always have, and love that "can do" self-sufficient attitude of its people. That's how I've been my entire life. However, that's not the issue, and inferring that I am "bashing" the people is dishonest. The issue is too many people allowing those in power to let them do as they please. The economy is crap for all but a select few, and what looks and feels "normal" to a bunch of "hard-working honest people" is sad. It seems people look past the ruins because, by god, those mountains sure are pretty. It's like people are getting their hairs plucked out of their head one by one until one day they wake up and find out they are bald. They go, "Huh. How'd that happen?"
I feel as though the people of Montana are being cheated, and that "can-do" attitude is being taken advantage of. And that's wrong.
If being in Washington I can open my door and let my dog run and play, yet I had to drive 45 minutes to find a place in fair Kalispell where I could do the same, what does that say? Our population of the immediate area is roughly the same as the Flathead Valley, but I have many more freedoms here. Bizarre. I felt like I'd stepped into the Twilight Zone.
Where I used to poo-poo fru-fru-eating establishments, and art museums, I've grown to appreciate them. I don't "live" that lifestyle per se, but I love having the option to enjoy it once in a while. Balance balance balance. I've got Ian Tyson right next to Pavarotti in my CD changer. They get along smashingly.
Reread Montguy's post. He is more eloquent than I.
Your opinion, welcome to it. I have had to live in Washington state before, glad I don't have to any more.
I have no trouble finding a place for my dog to go, or for access to good hunting and fishing, or to go cut firewood or camp or whatever.
I don't live in the Flathead, but the live like they want to, and that is fine with me.
If you consider freedoms to be something that is legislated through government telling people what they can do on their own property, well then yes we are on very opposite ends of the spectrum.
You sound like you have a place you like to live, fine, great, good for you.
I love where I live and the only thing I would change is to limit the amount of government interference, especially federal, that I have to put up with.
If you don't like the fact that there is a lot of money in certain hands here, but not others, redistribution disccusions belong on the politics forums.
If we were able to use our renewable resources and create jobs, then there would be a lot more blue collar jobs and wealth all around instead of the feds and courts shutting down our jobs.
I don't go to art museums and high priced restaraunts, I don't care about anyone elses politics as long as they don't try to convert me. You do your thing I'll do mine.
I was miserable when I had to live in "diverse" places like Seattle or San Diego or New Orleans, if you didn't ageree with the hyperbole, you were pretty much attacked, so I prefer Montana where you can believe what you want, and nobody cares.
They may not listen to you when you preach at them, but they don't care because it's your decision, so they won't legislate you believe something else.
I am happy here with all the benefits and problems this state has. It's still by far the best place I have ever seen or lived in, and I have lived all over the world.
This is the place I am happy, and apparently, so are a lot of other folks.
I'll be heading over to Thompson Falls in a few weeks. Love it there. Lots of great people, good food, nice scenery, pretty decent fishing.
I know I will enjoy it by appreciating what is there instead of how I think they should be.
Your opinion, welcome to it. I have had to live in Washington state before, glad I don't have to any more.
I have no trouble finding a place for my dog to go, or for access to good hunting and fishing, or to go cut firewood or camp or whatever.
I don't live in the Flathead, but the live like they want to, and that is fine with me.
If you consider freedoms to be something that is legislated through government telling people what they can do on their own property, well then yes we are on very opposite ends of the spectrum.
You sound like you have a place you like to live, fine, great, good for you.
I love where I live and the only thing I would change is to limit the amount of government interference, especially federal, that I have to put up with.
If you don't like the fact that there is a lot of money in certain hands here, but not others, redistribution disccusions belong on the politics forums.
If we were able to use our renewable resources and create jobs, then there would be a lot more blue collar jobs and wealth all around instead of the feds and courts shutting down our jobs.
I don't go to art museums and high priced restaraunts, I don't care about anyone elses politics as long as they don't try to convert me. You do your thing I'll do mine.
I was miserable when I had to live in "diverse" places like Seattle or San Diego or New Orleans, if you didn't ageree with the hyperbole, you were pretty much attacked, so I prefer Montana where you can believe what you want, and nobody cares.
They may not listen to you when you preach at them, but they don't care because it's your decision, so they won't legislate you believe something else.
I am happy here with all the benefits and problems this state has. It's still by far the best place I have ever seen or lived in, and I have lived all over the world.
This is the place I am happy, and apparently, so are a lot of other folks.
I'll be heading over to Thompson Falls in a few weeks. Love it there. Lots of great people, good food, nice scenery, pretty decent fishing.
I know I will enjoy it by appreciating what is there instead of how I think they should be.
I think we agree more than you think we agree.
And Redistribution? There is no "redistribution." Not in my 'hood, and not in Montana. That said, Montana *seems* to be on the losing end. All the railing we conservatives do to decry big government intruding on our ways, and yet it's big government (AKA Special Interests, Lobbyists, and Corporate America) that increasingly rules the land. Go figure, eh?
Say, aren't you the feller that markets to consumers like me? People who want clean food, raised properly and ethically? I've had my fill of feed lot sh*t, and I buy live critters from local, neighbor-growers (assuming the critters haven't been killed by the wolves who haven't figured out that National Park boundaries are where they are supposed to stop--another rant for another day).
I'm equally at home helping the neighbors during cut and brand season, as I am working up at 10,000 ft at sheep camp, and as I am in the fourth row of symphony hall.
See, now. We all need each other. We need people that disagree with us as much as we need those that agree.
I'd like to see Montana thrive in the way you've described, where hard work and a nose-to-the-grindstone approach is not only rewarded, but is the prevailing law of the land. But to me, it looks like all that hard work is increasingly to the benefit of a very, very select few.
The hard workers are so busy working that the rug is being pulled out from under them while they are working.
Interesting discussion, and I thank you for all your observations. I love stuff like this to chew on.
I've been thinking about this a lot today. What the hey. When I say I love Montana, I most certainly don't mean I love everything and every place in the state. Over the decades we've lived in six MT towns -- two I've loved, three were OK, and one I disliked intensely.
We do need commenters that disagree. If this forum turned into a Pollyanna-ish, gushing, "I love everything about Montana," I think I'd barf. But what I just don't get is someone who (not speaking of anyone on this thread) visited Great Falls once, never saw anything else of the state, didn't like it, and spends the rest of his life bashing all of Montana.
This is all very well-stated. I am one of the ones who stepped across the border to Wyoming as I couldn't make it on the low wages. Montana indeed is a bleak place for a lot of people to live. I could not have stated the bolded paragraphs better myself.
By the way, where is the Microsoft data center moving to in Wyoming?
I'm glad that your decision has bettered your situation, WyoEagle. I don't know what part of the state you're from, but when you suggest that "Montana indeed is a bleak place for a lot of people to live", I can't help but associate this with much of the central and eastern portions of the state. It's actually rather funny that I would offhandedly make that assumption, because, I think, a lot of the state's future economic potential rides on the success of current and future development in the reasonably promising areas of Billings and Sydney, possibly along with Glendive (that could be a bit of a stretch, though).
And Cheyenne is the future home of Microsoft's new data center, which is a $500M investment in a modest community of what, 40,000 or so? Kudos to Wyoming (and of course Gov. Mead), but there's a part of me that says "it should've been Bozeman". But sadly, considering my previous post, I have a pretty damned good idea why it wasn't.
I have lived most of my adult life in central Wyoming, and a little in Colorado (before the "boom"). My family goes back a long way in those parts--tough old ranchers and settlers. I've always considered the Rocky Mountain West as "home."
However, I've been in Eastern Washington State for the last eleven years. It's Nirvana, actually. I never thought I'd say that.
I just took a trip back to NW Montana. It was a sad place. What was even worse, was the fine folks of that city felt it was not only normal, but "better" than any other place. A dump of a city with ridiculous traffic (and I do mean ridiculous), junky streets filled with metal scrapyards, crummy-looking neighborhoods, crappy city planning, sky high housing costs and sorry wages, and no where to go because the whole friggin' valley is fenced off into tiny parcels. I couldn't even find a place to run my dog without driving an hour.
The arts are stifled, the places to wine and dine are relegated to yet another greasy spoon (hey, I like a greasy spoon joint--just not on every corner next to the requisite sh*t-hole casino on every corner), and there's a general sense of chaos. There was no sense of community, because everyone is too busy being " tough, independent spirits."
There are HUGE $$ in Montana, beyond huge, actually. Yeah. How's that "trickle down" working for y'all?
Edit to add: I'm an educated professional, but will not invest in Montana long term because of precisely what you've laid out--the return on investment (on so many levels) is at this point looking forward, a questionable investment.
Thank you for sharing these observations. While it would be dishonest to describe all of Western MT's communities as embodying this image entirely, I've definitely seen what you've seen here and there, and it's simply inexcusable, no matter how "normal" people want to tell themselves it is (and to think that some would have me believe that the people, in fact, aren't part of the problem!).
And for anyone who thinks I would somehow have change and development "forced" on any of these communities is laughably mistaken. If the citizens and leaders of a given community don't want a better degree of modern livelihood, then that's their problem--If, say, Polson or Hamilton wants to eventually have more in common with Broadus or Browning than with Bozeman or Billings, then fine, they can have it their way. I just hope they aren't expecting their children (or grandchildren?) to stick around.
But on that note, please let me be very clear about something: I'm not here to thrash on Montana or discourage affection for it, and I guess to some people it could appear that way. For my part, I have never discouraged anyone from coming here to see what it has to offer them. People of all age-groups show up in this state from all over the country, California to New York, Minnesota to Texas, Maine to Florida, you name it, and absolutely fall in love with it. Montana has a heartbeat, it has an appeal, and it has great potential and opportunity if the people allow it to materialize, there's no question about that.
Nonetheless, what I've already iterated are doubts pertaining to the state's future, things that need to be considered from the bottom grassroots to the state's highest offices. Montana's romantic appeal isn't going to sustain it forever, bottom line.
If you live in eastern Washington, how does your view count as far as how Montanan's feel about Montana?
My views on Washington would be just as irrelevant on a poll asking how Washingtoners felt about their state.
I must admit I was surprised that WyoEagle was the one to start this thread as that poster has never made any bones about having issues with Montana that didn't align with what they thought was important, (mainly high wages) and I had thought this was probably a troll thread to try and pick fights or to encourage others living outside Montana to post what is wrong with the state in their view.
The jury is still out on this in my view.
Alaska also scored very high, and also has many of the same problems Montana does, limits imposed by the feds on using what we have to make a better life here.
Although you and twoponies have already further addressed one another, it has to be noted that, when a major polling company releases data that finds seventy-whatever percent of a certain state's inhabitants to regard their state as "the greatest", then scrutiny should be acceptable, be it from Montanans, Washingtonians, New Yorkers or whomever; those of you who regard our state as "the greatest" should be prepared to defend that conclusion.
Also, as kind of a side-note, it's rather odd that you jumped on WyoEagle and twoponies the way that you did, considering that both of them were providing feedback to my post, which, in case you didn't bother to read it, was a very, very brief dissertation of sorts regarding Montana's pitfalls as outlined by a native resident of the state (me).
And yet, "the jury is out to lunch" on the question of whether or not this is a troll thread? Hopefully you've reached a verdict by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Every time we try to make the jobs here, we get shut down in court. See the power plant in Great Falls, the attacks on coal, mining and timber production.
Because of our geographical location, shipping is expensive, so although we have the qualified people and raw materials, everything is shipped out to states closer to shipping to be manufactured into value added products instead of being made here.
It sure has done Montana well to be so rigidly (if not willfully) dependent on two or three economic activities for its entire history, no?
While it certainly isn't acceptable that the feds have been shafting rural industry for beyond half a century, I'll never be content to blame them (or Montana's geographic location) for Montana's failure to adapt to the need for different infrastructure in terms of technology, finance, general urban development, a modern business climate, etc., all of which would have us farther ahead than we are now. For that I'll blame Helena, not D.C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Don't try to start a manufacturing business here, you will get hit with lawsuits until you don't have any more money to fight.
Now you're on to something, Silvertip. Reforms, reforms, reforms...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
This is a playground for the rich and shameless, and a dumping ground for trustifarians so they don't embarrass their rich folks back home anymore.
In spite of that, People that can survive here have a deep pride in their history and tradition of self reliance. They are proud they don't all buckle under to special interest groups like the eco-terrorists, that they refuse to leave no matter what the out of state interests do, including infesting the place with wolves to try and destroy the wildlife for the hunting industry, and the livestock of the ranchers.
Montanan's are a proud, independent people that don't like others telling them what they should do or believe.
Yes, outside city limits and reservation borders, this is a very conservative state. We work hard, but earn what we have. We struggle against the climate and outside forces every day just to keep what we have and try to earn a living in spite of that.
Montanan's have a very special bond with the land. It shapes us, it tests us, it strengthens and inspires us, and yes, regularly, it tries to kill us, but because we live close to our land, it's very precious to us, and we are one with the land.
Yes we are proud of our land and our state, there's a lot to be proud of. No it isn't a place for everyone, the living here can be harsh and unforgiving, but at the same time it is what makes the people strong and willing to work hard and help their neighbors with whatever they have to give.
If you bad mouth, complain or whine, you won't find a lot of acceptance. You have to hold yourself to a much higher standard to simply survive here.
When you put down the state, the natives and those that have moved here to become Montanan's will take offense, but usually instead of a punch in the nose, you are simply ignored, and you will find it a very lonely place to live.
Montana is a very small community connected by a lot of roads. Although the state has several diverse regions with very different people living there, we are all Montanan's, and proud of it.
If anyone doesn't like that, tough. You can have your museums of modern art, Nothing beats the alpenglow on the mountains at sunrise for beauty.
You can have your snails and overpriced tidbits on a fancy plate served by snooty waiters in tuxedos and the high priced fermented grape juice, I'll take fresh elk steaks cooked over a campfire with a cold bottle of beer chilled in a mountain stream over that anytime.
Montana IS the LAST BEST PLACE, and we are lucky enough to realize that. You stay where you are happy, and we will all be better off.
If you started appreciating your state instead of worrying about mine, then perhaps you would rank higher on that poll
I could pick at this bottom 3/4 of your comment on several of your points and only manage to agree with you on a select few (particularly that you identify a wide sense of community and pride that comes from living here as individual components of a small, yet markedly diverse population that appreciates its surroundings. Indeed, I do love this about Montana).
But what I think I'm seeing here, Silvertip, are gross generalizations about Montanans, their characteristics and their experiences that, I suspect, conform mostly to your own preferences. For me, I've never relied on the land in the personal ways that you have, and I've certainly never provided agricultural labor assistance of any sort to anyone at any time, and I say that as someone who grew up in a very small ranching community where, believe it or not, many of us had no agricultural knowledge or experience. In many ways, it was probably closer in character to mainstream suburbia than it was to Frontier-era Montana. In my case, I don't really like camping; I like paved roads and sidewalks; I don't hunt; I welcome growth in our communities.
I've never held a job related to agriculture, mining or energy/mineral extraction, and you can be sure that I've never wanted to. The list goes on.
Does any of this make me a lesser Montanan? I'll let you answer that...
I don't really know what even makes a Montanan, to be honest. I live here, I have my reasons for loving it (some of them surely being in common with yours), and I want to stick it out and see what this place is truly capable of. Today, I'm relatively optimistic; tomorrow, who knows?
Anyway, Montana is keeping me for now...or forever. Time shall tell.
I'm glad that your decision has bettered your situation, WyoEagle. I don't know what part of the state you're from, but when you suggest that "Montana indeed is a bleak place for a lot of people to live", I can't help but associate this with much of the central and eastern portions of the state. It's actually rather funny that I would offhandedly make that assumption, because, I think, a lot of the state's future economic potential rides on the success of current and future development in the reasonably promising areas of Billings and Sydney, possibly along with Glendive (that could be a bit of a stretch, though).
And Cheyenne is the future home of Microsoft's new data center, which is a $500M investment in a modest community of what, 40,000 or so? Kudos to Wyoming (and of course Gov. Mead), but there's a part of me that says "it should've been Bozeman". But sadly, considering my previous post, I have a pretty damned good idea why it wasn't.
I mean that all of Montana can be a bleak place. I'm from southwest Montana (which I consider a separate region in its own right) and have lived in western Montana. I know plenty of people who are still in different parts of the state who are struggling, most of my classmates from high school are long gone. In quite a few towns you can bet a pretty good chunk of the populace is employed by the other big industry you didn't mention, tourism. Unfortunately that's lots of minimum wage jobs.
I know what you mean about the data center being in Bozeman. It does seem like a good fit for a place like that and could certainly use some middle class type of jobs. I'm not sure what the town is like now but in college it seemed to be lots of minimum wage earners, people working from home, and trust fund babies. I can see what you mean about development in Billings, having not been to Sidney and not having visited Glendive in over 10 years I don't know what that area is even like anymore.
Cheyenne actually has over 50,000 people and is the largest city in the state. It's a metropolis by our standards.
I wanted to weigh in on a couple things. Everybody knows that I am not from Montana, nor do I live there now, but what I have to say applys to anywhere.
In this discussion, one person says that Montana is hurting itself because it is not diversified and is not growing in the proper directions. To that, I have to ask, by who's opinion? You might want growth and expansion and diversification, but maybe the next person doesn't. Maybe that person is willing to put up with non expansion. You can not fault them for it, it's what "they want" and are willing to do. Another person has no business telling them what they want or how they have to achieve it or they'll get stagnant. Maybe they want it to be stagnant.
My experience on people that love Montana, and really appreciate it's worth, are the people that do not want it to grow and expand like other states. They want to keep the beauty, the wide open lands, the ease of access for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc... They don't want the McMansions buying up the land all the way around the lake and shutting off fishing access. Sure, building McMansions are a lucrative business and offer jobs, but those people are willing to pass up those jobs if it means keeping the access to the lake. Does that make sense?
Not everybody wants the expansion that some people insist has to come about in order to survive. It is not needed to survive. Montana is not going to blow away, it's not going to go away. If not one business ever opened up new, again in Montana, Montana is still going to be there and to a lot of folks, that's ok.
So keep an open mind when saying what you like and dislike about Montana. Realize that some want that, and yet, others don't want it. Either way it goes, it's not required to go that way or else. It's still a free country and a free state and together the people are going to decide how it expands, and more importantly, how it doesn't expand.
Last edited by ElkHunter; 04-28-2014 at 09:20 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
