Understanding the water situation... (Billings, Bozeman: real estate, HOA, mortgage)

[DiaDeMuertos]

We are relocating to the Laurel area. Roughly. Looking as far south as Absarokee and over to Park City sort of in an arc. Coming from a place where you can drill a well anywhere, I'm very confused by the water situation as I peruse real estate ads.

The goal is to first purchase land (minimum 40 acres) and then put up a barndominium. However, this seems as though there's major risk with the well and also the permits for septic?

My husband is heading up first while I wrap up business here, so he will begin searching for a realtor. However, we would like to have a basic understanding of things before we seek out a realtor.

Anything else we should know ahead of time considering our plans? We've never lived in Montana, but the job my husband has been offered is only about $10k/yr less than what he's currently making and we feel like the quality of life will more than make up for the money. He visited for his interview and was pleased with what he saw.

Please lay it on me: specifically regarding land purchases, home building, accessibility, water, septic, what I probably should know but don't. Educate me. Thanks in advance.

[ericsvibe]

Hello Dia,

I don't know what part of the country you are coming from, but I will explain it to you.

Normally, ground water accumulates in between the top soil and bedrock. This is called the aquifer. Where I came from in Florida, the bedrock depth was pretty much consistent across the entire state. In mountainous states like Montana, the bedrock varies. It could be at the surface in upper elevations. Or it could be 600 feet deep in a chasm that runs along the valley floor.

Your realtor should be able to let you know what areas are most like to present a problem. You can also call the local well drilling companies and they will have lots of detailed information available. One piece of property you look at could have bedrock 10 feet deep. If that is the case, you won't have water, and you won't be able to have a septic tank. However, you could go 700 yards in another direction, and the bedrock could be 150 feet deep and be able to have a well and septic.

Here is a good rule to go by, if you are new to Montana, purchase land that has an existing well and septic. That way you can have it tested and then won't have to worry about it. Then once you are up here, you can then look for your dream property and not be in a rush for time.

Laurel has lots of affordable homes.

My boss spent over 100k trying to find water on their property. They wound up having to purchase an adjacent property that had a well, just to get water.

[historyfan]

It is almost always "cheaper" in the long run to buy property with existing well with good drinking water & existing electric power than to buy undeveloped property & develop it yourself. I would always buy a teardown before raw land. Do have passing water quality testing by an environmental testing lab as one contingency of closing.

Well depths, well production, and water quality can vary widely within a very small geographical area.

We are fortunate all of our wells on ranch--deep or shallow-- produce good tasting water quality tested approved water, while our neighbors in each direction have to purchase bottled water for their households. Their wells produce non-toxic water that smells either of sulfur or a swamp and cattle & horses drink it reluctantly.

[flyingcat2k]

I'm also assuming that you are bringing the proverbial "big sack of money" with you to buy your 1/16th section. That size of plot with water and power should run 8k to 10k an acre so you're looking at 320k to 400k for just the land. I'd recommend looking north of Laurel than south. Mel Gibson used to own a large ranch in the areas you are looking now so prices will be quite high from follow-on Californian inflation. He's since sold it but it is a well known area to Hollywood types and wannabes. I think Brooke Shields still owns her place and Park City was the original location of "The Simple Life". It was eventually rejected since it was too close to Billings.

CHS (it sounds like that's where your DH will be working) pays well for Montana but it doesn't pay enough to support a 300-400k mortgage so your downpayment will be key in affording what you want.

[DiaDeMuertos]

Thank you for the informative responses. It makes much more sense now.

We've looked at some tear down types and also some cabin types, and thought the same things that you're telling us: the security of well/septic might really be worth it. We will insist on testing. We have a few horses but also I raise dogs and we have a large family so water quality is a real concern.

We definitely don't want an existing home as our long term purchase because with my business and our family size/needs we are atypical in what works best for us. Sounds like we are back to the cabin or tear down.

A few more questions:

1) generally in the area I'm speaking of, is accessibility an issue during winter months? We won't have anything smaller than a large SUV (Suburban). My husband drives a dually and he's planning on getting a plow for the front because we assume it's necessary.

2) it appears as if many areas have an HOA of some sort. I don't mind pitching in cash so they can help plow but We are vehemently opposed to covenants or being instructed on how to use our own land/home. Are most HOAs a collection for plowing/common areas? Are more properties under HOAs vs not?

Thanks for allowing me to pick your brains. Your firsthand knowledge is quite helpful.

[Senah]

These are all good pieces of advice. Also, keep in mind water rights. If there are streams running through the property, make sure you are able to use water off of them, that they aren't seasonal, and if there is existing water coming off them to the property, that it is legally obtained. For example, we looked at a property that had 3 wells on it, but when we got the water tested and the flow rates assessed, the flow rate was so low on 2 of them it was basically un-usable, and on the 3rd the water was contaminated. They had water coming in off of the stream that ran through the property however, which seemed to be enough for the house, but when I had a local lawyer look up the water rights, they had been illegally siphoning off that water for 12 years and had no right to it.

So, be sure you get someone to look at what the water rights are if you look at property (it only cost us about 3 hours of a lawyer looking at records in town etc. and saved us a bundle - basically a property that had no water).

[Redraven]

It is unlikely that a 40 acre property will have an HOA.
There are many properties that do no have any Association. If there is no Association, you don't have to worry about the CCRs, there is no one to enforce them. Local law enforcement will not have anything to do with them.
You don't really NEED a well! A lot of people get by just fine with a cistern. You don't even have to haul your own water, there are guys who have large tank trucks who will keep your cistern full.
However, you WILL have to have a "perc test" done to be sure a septic tank and drain field can be installed.
Will you need a snowplow? Maybe, if your lane is long or it is quite a distance to the county road. Personally, I would rather have a compact utility tractor with a loader or a snow blower (or both) on it. It is a pretty safe bet that with 40 acres you will be wishing for a tractor anyway! I don't have a plow on my truck, but I do have one on one of my ATVs. At my age, it is much nicer to push the snow around with that than to shovel it!
Welcome, and good luck in your land search.

[DiaDeMuertos]

Senah, excellent advice regarding water rights. Thanks so much for the input.

Redraven, thanks for explaining the plow situation and perc test. We currently live on acreage so we know we will be trading our zero turn mower in and putting that towards a tractor, I never thought to use a tractor for a snow removal. Of course it makes perfect sense but if you haven't witnessed anyone doing it regularly you just don't think that way I guess. Also, many properties we've looked at online come with an HOA even on 40 acres, others have deed restrictions like agricultural only, nothing residential. I was very surprised.

[Senah]

I really think it depends on where you live in terms of the HOA thing. For example in Gallatin County, within a certain distance of the city limits, any property less than 80 acres is determined to fall into an HOA category and the properties around it are divided up into an HOA and there are residential zoning regulations put into place (there are a very few exceptions put into place for this). There are also some easements in place as well to look out for. This was a real problem because when we were looking for acreage more than 40 was out of our price range but 40 or less means HOA and covenants.

Billings doesn't have such a problem as Bozeman I think, but it is important to get copies of the HOA regulations I think and read them, and not only look at what they are today, but think about the fact that if you buy a property with HOA regs, realize that they are usually modified every 10-15 years, and realize that they could change. For example, we wanted to be able to hunt on our property, or at least shoot clays. I got the regs and also the last 2 editions (so, from 1992, 2002, and 2012 when we started looking, as they had just been ratified). In 1992 you could hunt and do whatever, in 2002 you couldn't hunt anymore but you could shoot on your own property, but between certain hours, in 2002 you couldn't discharge firearms because it would disturb the peace and quiet of neighbors. So, you can see the situation we'd have been in had we bought property there in 1991!

At any rate, all good things to think about out here - it has made us want to steer away from places within HOAs and certain zoning regulations, or at least HOA ones with strict regs not near public land.

[DiaDeMuertos]

Senah, this again proves why we need a good realtor. At our house, if you want to go target shooting at two am, or hunting at dawn, you walk out and start shooting. Opening weekend of anything it sounds like WW3.

As far as th HOA changing it's rules, I'm fairly certain you'd be grandfathered in. They can't ask you to abide by something you didn't sign at the onset.

I'll be honest, I always thought of Montana as a state full of people who valued individual rights and preferred to be left alone a little. But just with this land search I'm getting quite the opposite impression. Please tell me my original assessment was correct. I can't move to a place that's breathing down my neck with rules and regulations. We are simple people. Quiet. Never do anything wrong. Just want to live and let live. Why did I think this was a sort of Montana philosophy? Have I been misinformed?