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Unfortunately, it's a true stigma, not about judgment of people individually, but of a collective attitude that IS a part of a lot of the mindset of a lot of people mostly from California. (and other larger areas)
I understand that every person is different, and a lot of Californians are really nice people.
About 10 to 12 years ago, the Oregonian (Portland's paper) ran a series of articles called "The New West." It talked about how the Intermountain West (MT, ID, CO, etc.) will grow in population because of the California exodus.
There are a few things that point to how ignorant the dislike is. Here is my list:
1. Most of the Californians shuffling themselves around within the Intermountian West are the very "regular" Californians, that is, there is hardly anything different about them than the person who resides in the area they are moving to (they are generally 30 +, white, educated or have a decent skill and of one of the Christian faiths). The exception you point to is the "movie star or retired executive buying themselves a ranch." That's a small percentage of the Californian heading to mountain country. If they were the "flashy" Californian, they wouldn't dream of Bozeman, Boise, Seattle, Medford or Colorado Springs.
2. Not all Californians are opting to move and, those that do, are spreading themselves out over a lot of territory. Yes, most are going to the Intermountain West but some also opt for Seattle/Portland, others go to the Southwest (LV, PHX and ABQ), and a smattering head for Texas, the Southeast and Florida coastal cities.
3. There's a lot of land out there. No need to worry. Oregonians are some of the biggest A-holes about the anti-California sentiment. Do you realize that Oregon has 96,000 square miles? It also has 3.5 million people. Do you realize that ALL SIX New England states fit into Oregon? And they have at least 13.5 million people and still have a lot of breathing room in terms of their forests and farmlands, mostly up in VT, NH and Maine, though.
I've been poo-poohed as a Californian in the Northwest by people who first started talking to me, assuming I might have been a "local" and then do a turn later. People should judge the Californian by the type of Californian he or she is (conventional, educated, low-key VERSUS flashy, materialistic, troublemaker) and not for purposes of scapegoating.
i was thinking of retiring to montana,i live in florida and have been overrun by the yankee invasion from up north for years and i can see where you are coming from but the folks from the north east are far more pushy and domineering in the way they try to make us southerners see it their way. i have met people from montana here in florida,worked with,lived near,been freind with.i think we southerners and montana natives get along very well,sort of know how it feels,know what i mean?
i can see where you are coming from but the folks from the north east are far more pushy and domineering in the way they try to make us southerners see
True, Northeasterners in FL can be pushy...I won't even go into something I experienced in line at the Dania Beach FL post office about 10 years because I'd be accused of stereotyping and being a bigot. I'm sure others have seen such similar behavior that would cause them to dislike Northeasterners.
Now, question, Sam, as a Californian (Westerner, native) in Atlanta (the South) where I lived for 2 years, am I technically a YANKEE? I've always wanted to know if someone born and raised in California was a Yankee...
Southerner or Yankee have nothing to do with anything West of the Mississippi.
As to using Californians as scapegoats, that's not what they do. These folks are talking from experience of days gone by. At first, it was Californians buying up houses and land to develope. Later on it became other states contributing to the problems they were having. But the later folks, although not from California, were still called the California problem.
As the exodus from California began, the influx of people were not the big problem. The big problem was, they started things like "Home owners Associations", or "Convenances" and expected everybody to follow suit. They had money and they had pull and began to change the surroundings. "We need traffic lights, we need Malls, we can get rid of the bars because we don't need them." That's what the new folks were doing.
The part that hurts is, Montana is a quaint place. Small town views, small town attitudes, small town thoughts. Because, it was small towns. They had no desire to become the big thriving metropolis with Malls, fancy restaurants and such. And the people from all the other states, loved Montana because of that. But when they got there, the first thing they did was add in or bring along, all the ideas of what was good back where they came from. They urgently decided to start changing Montana to be like it was in Rancho Bernardo. There goes the exact charm that Montana offered and they thought they wanted until they got there.
So the thoughts of a few on the Forum are based on being pushed out of the very things they grew up with and loved. Taxes have tripled, or in some cases worse, because of all the new things that the out of staters want.
Long time desendents of family owned ranches are selling off property so they can pay their taxes. They can't make a living anymore because the new subdivison that was built complain that cows moo and it stinks when the wind is just right.
My thought is, the cows were there first. If you move into the area, imbrace it, or don't move there.
Thank you Elk for the good description. Let me take it a little farther. When we moved here from California years ago there was very limited shopping here and if you wanted to do something like school shopping you had to go to Missoula (a 1 1/2 hour drive) or Spokane (a 4 hour drive) or you did without. We groused about having to do that for awhile and then realized that for it to be any other way you had to be "citified" and that's not what we moved here for. We realized like others before us that these trips were a nice break from daily life and something to look forward to and when we got back from the big city we didn't have to put up with the stuff that goes along with it.
Now that's changed, it was decided that we HAD to have more shopping,fast food joints,strip malls (aka "lifestyle centers") and banks on every corner. Now people hate to drive to Kalispell because of the traffic and (even though I hate to generalize) the rude and pushy tourists who naturally congregate there. It's also started to change the locals who being frustrated are getting rude and showing signs of road rage and most people try to avoid Kalispell as much as possible.
We really didn't need or want all of this but it was thrust upon us anyway by people from CA. I say CA because the developer of the current large "lifestyle center" is from the SF bay area.
I'm sure we'll get used to it just like Missoula is getting used to N. Reserve but I'd hope y'all would see that it does tick off the people who are here for the peace and quiet of small town living.
As for Californians in the south, they are not considered Yankees, rather the people think all we do all day is sit on the beach and say "dude" alot, hang out with movie stars and do drugs/drink and are generally lazy and have buckets of money. That being said we were always treated well by the true southern folk when we lived there.
This thread makes me think of a game processor I use from time to time, their outfit has been in the same location for as long as I can remember. A few years back someone bought the land behind their property and developed a sub-division. Next someone comes and buys a home directly behind the meat processor, and all of the sudden there is a big stink in the newspaper about the butcher being such a bad guy because he has a pile of carcasses (that are regularly removed) and the "new" neighbors are trying to get him shut down. The butcher had been in the same place YEARS before anyone dreamed of a subdivision in the area.
Luckily he stuck to his guns and still operates.
As for the California thing... I know people are sensitive about it, and I'm not saying that there are not good people in or from California. But I am guilty of cringing when I see an Escalade, BMW, H2 etc.. with CA plates on them here in Montana.
I am also saying that it makes me sick to see condo's and developments going up like wildfire, regardless of how much more space we have here than there is in more densely populated areas. I'm tired of people developing ground that we used to play, hunt, ride horses or 4 wheelers on etc..
It's not a blame game, its stuff that really happens. Even worse, it really sucks not to be able to afford a place in your own stomping grounds. I think we've beaten that horse long enough..
As for the CA "attitude".
I had a gal in a bar a few months ago (She was from Los Angeles) tell me that she thought that local teenagers should move out for a minimum of 10 years after high school so that they could experience "culture" and give the new transplants a chance to develop our town so they could see how cool it was when they got back. Then she went on to tell me how she didn't like the way people treated Californians... ROFL!! ("Gee lady, you wonder why?..")
Last edited by Timberwolf232; 02-22-2008 at 10:06 AM..
Reason: typo
This thread makes me think of a game processor I use from time to time, their outfit has been in the same location for as long as I can remember. A few years back someone bought the land behind their property and developed a sub-division. Next someone comes and buys a home directly behind the meat processor, and all of the sudden there is a big stink in the newspaper about the butcher being such a bad guy because he has a pile of carcasses (that are regularly removed) and the "new" neighbors are trying to get him shut down. The butcher had been in the same place YEARS before anyone dreamed of a subdivision in the area.
Luckily he stuck to his guns and still operates.
As for the California thing... I know people are sensitive about it, and I'm not saying that there are not good people in or from California. But I am guilty of cringing when I see an Escalade, BMW, H2 etc.. with CA plates on them here in Montana.
I am also saying that it makes me sick to see condo's and developments going up like wildfire, regardless of how much more space we have here than there is in more densely populated areas. I'm tired of people developing ground that we used to play, hunt, ride horses or 4 wheelers on etc..
It's not a blame game, its stuff that really happens. Even worse, it really sucks not to be able to afford a place in your own stomping grounds. I think we've beaten that horse long enough..
As for the CA "attitude".
I had a gal in a bar a few months ago (She was from Los Angeles) tell me that she thought that local teenagers should move out for a minimum of 10 years after high school so that they could experience "culture" and give the new transplants a chance to develop our town so they could see how cool it was when they got back. Then she went on to tell me how she didn't like the way people treated Californians... ROFL!! ("Gee lady, you wonder why?..")
Several good points, but the one I agree with the most is that "we've beaten that horse long enough...". We have had multiple threads with similar theme, and although they all ring true, I don't see any solution that doesn't start with the individual personality, ethics and values of the person moving. It has nothing to do with geography. There is nothing inherently evil about California, Oregon, Montana, or any other state or area. Purely my opinion, but this concept is corroborated by the posts of Rickers and JimJ. They moved from California, but were "Montanans" in lifestyle and attitude BEFORE they moved.
In contrast, ANY person that walks into a bar and proceeds to tell them that the locals should move away so the transplants could develop the area has an "ATTITUDE". The fact that they are from California is incidental. The same would be true if a person moved from Bozeman and displayed the same arrogance in one of our local watering holes in Placerville. The same people that move to Montana next to a meat processor and complain about the carcusses, are the people that move next to an airport here in California and complain about the noise from the airplanes. When I lived in Nebraska, these were the same people that moved next to a cattle ranch and complained that cow dung didn't smell like Brut. The point is, these people are selfish idiots and they are EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, they have the resources to move around and they are coming to an area near you soon. We can restate the problem over and over again, but I don't see an easy solution other than trying to stay away from them as much as possible. For those of you that are prone to civic activism and can get involved with local government to work for change, I applaud you. I just can't. The bureaucracy , pettiness, and "Brut smell" (B.S.) sends my blood pressure to stroke levels.
The problems that are recounted in these threads always seem to boil down to people that think money and power are the goals of life. If you believe otherwise, they are uncomfortable. This discomfort is the basis for intolerance, and their mission suddenly is to change you, your heritage, and the environment that you love. This is about MONEY, POWER, and the need to CONTROL others.
Therefore, whether you are moving from Montana to California, California to Montana, or from Broken Pelvis, Idaho to Short Hairs, Florida, you are an OUTSIDER, and shouldn't be accepted until you show people you are courteous, honest, respectful, and that your word is good. Also, while you don't have to display a negative attitude about where your FROM, it doesn't hurt to show a positive attitude about where you ARE now. A little pride and loyalty to the locale goes a long way in erasing that "outsider" label.
Elk hunter,
I can relate to the farmers having to sell there land to pay taxes. That is very sad. My family farms in cal. it's a little ranch and it is very old. I grew up there. Ranchers are selling and subdividing there land. So I have watched the land be devloped all around us. I do not live there anymore because I can't stand what once was a little town that I grew up in. Is or has become a big city. Sure we lived in the country and it is quiet. But we had people moving in from the city complaing about the noise and big trucks going bye during harvest. And the dust.
We were there frist. So if they don't like it they should move on or should of never complained about it in the frist place. I feel that people should not come into a place and try to change things that people have been doing for years. The poor rancers of been farming and such for years that is there lively hood why do people want to come in and push them out. If the tables were turned they would not like it.
I'm also against the home owners assocation. They try to tell you what color your house has to be and your yard as to be very well kept and so on.
I did'nt relaize that all this was going on in montana. Now I can see why one may be so upset. Change is good to a certain ponit. But this kind of change is not good.
That's the attitude I'm looking for. I feel better now. I give people plenty of room out of courtesy. However, I don't like people trying to wear my pants while I'm still in them.
Yup, that's it. To me, it ain't the Californians, or the Vermonters, or (take your pick), it's the attitude that somehow we have it wrong here and are in need of reformation. That we're a little backward and need to be straightened out. That somehow we're just not bright enough to understand the big picture and they're here to get us re-educated and on the proper track.
I don't really care where you came from. I care about how you treat your family and what kind of steward you are to your land and animals. I care about how you treat the waitress in the local cafe. In the event of a local emergency, I wonder if you'd pitch right in and help or start looking to the government to come make everything all better. If you haven't got any callouses on your hands, I want you to know what they look like and what it takes to get them. I'll probably being paying attention to how much you listen as opposed to talk, what kinds of questions you ask, and the height of your soapbox. I want to know if you are reasonably self-sufficient or if you are going to immediately start yelling for the county plow if we get anything like snow. I don't really care what you have or how much money you control, I just don't want you to use either to try and reform this state to your liking. If you have a smarter way of doing things, I want to hear about it and see if it makes sense - I'm not ignorant and chances are I've been around more than you might think. In short, if you're a doer and a thinker, I want to make your acquaintance, no matter your circumstances. If you're a leech, find someplace else to squat or get your life out of first gear and contribute. It's a short ride and there's no point in laying about wondering if anything's going to happen. Takes all kinds, but sheeesh....
Yes, in reference to naturebound, you can move here and be accepted. However, in this age of instant gratification people seem to think it must come overnight and without knowing anything more than how big a house you have and what you drive. This is one of those things in life that takes time, and as there is thankfully some individuality left here you're not going to have blanket acceptance. That's not going to occur anywhere I know of, and with good reason. Nobody likes everybody. It's not that we're not friendly, but a lot of folks here have an edge to them from a lot of hard work and long winters with not much pay to show for it. That in kind makes them good neighbors but they just might test you a little to see how deep your waters run.
We have some d*** good things left in Montana, even with our aforementioned "reformers" buying people who can bend laws and circumstances to the detriment of what we have and how we live our lives and enjoy our state. I don't have even a tiny problem standing up for what I think this state is made of. Even less of a problem letting someone know that what I think they're doing isn't right for us. But, like GLS says, I'd much rather politely show them to the door than escort them through at high velocity.
Yup, that's it. To me, it ain't the Californians, or the Vermonters, or (take your pick), it's the attitude that somehow we have it wrong here and are in need of reformation. That we're a little backward and need to be straightened out. That somehow we're just not bright enough to understand the big picture and they're here to get us re-educated and on the proper track.
I don't really care where you came from. I care about how you treat your family and what kind of steward you are to your land and animals. I care about how you treat the waitress in the local cafe. In the event of a local emergency, I wonder if you'd pitch right in and help or start looking to the government to come make everything all better. If you haven't got any callouses on your hands, I want you to know what they look like and what it takes to get them. I'll probably being paying attention to how much you listen as opposed to talk, what kinds of questions you ask, and the height of your soapbox. I want to know if you are reasonably self-sufficient or if you are going to immediately start yelling for the county plow if we get anything like snow. I don't really care what you have or how much money you control, I just don't want you to use either to try and reform this state to your liking. If you have a smarter way of doing things, I want to hear about it and see if it makes sense - I'm not ignorant and chances are I've been around more than you might think. In short, if you're a doer and a thinker, I want to make your acquaintance, no matter your circumstances. If you're a leech, find someplace else to squat or get your life out of first gear and contribute. It's a short ride and there's no point in laying about wondering if anything's going to happen. Takes all kinds, but sheeesh....
Yes, in reference to naturebound, you can move here and be accepted. However, in this age of instant gratification people seem to think it must come overnight and without knowing anything more than how big a house you have and what you drive. This is one of those things in life that takes time, and as there is thankfully some individuality left here you're not going to have blanket acceptance. That's not going to occur anywhere I know of, and with good reason. Nobody likes everybody. It's not that we're not friendly, but a lot of folks here have an edge to them from a lot of hard work and long winters with not much pay to show for it. That in kind makes them good neighbors but they just might test you a little to see how deep your waters run.
We have some d*** good things left in Montana, even with our aforementioned "reformers" buying people who can bend laws and circumstances to the detriment of what we have and how we live our lives and enjoy our state. I don't have even a tiny problem standing up for what I think this state is made of. Even less of a problem letting someone know that what I think they're doing isn't right for us. But, like GLS says, I'd much rather politely show them to the door than escort them through at high velocity.
Very well said! Unfortunately, some "reformers" on now on their way to WalMart to see if they can buy callouses at a discount (probably labeled, "made in China").
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How Sad
