The Montanan's problem with outsiders moving in.. (Great Falls, Bozeman: best cities, townhouse)

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by Reziac

I been tryin' to get y'all to help me start that feedlot in Beverly Hills... hey, it worked for certain hillbillies a couple generations back, why not now!

How bout a pig farm?

Heh heh, reminds me of when my 2 year old sees a picture of a pig he says "pew-ee daddy", (he picked it up at an auction I took him too..)

[TMF2008]

Well I guess some people in Montana have a lot in common with us Oregonians.

CALIFORNIANS....

Not all are bad, but, they can afford to live.

While us others suffer with losing our jobs and not being able to afford a nice home.

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

The "Californian" problem goes way back in the rocky mountain west. It's synonymous with people taking up their own causes and views in an area that may not, nor want to share those said views. MOST, but not all of this frustration is based on the "California" attitude.

Unfortunately, it's a true stigma, not about judgment of people individually, but of a collective attitude that IS a part of a lot of the mindset of a lot of people mostly from California. (and other larger areas)

I understand that every person is different, and a lot of Californians are really nice people. I just pick on CA folks more because the majority of the greedy real estate types come from out there... Actually I have quite a few friends from CA, and we agree about the mindset thing... There are quite a few nice Californians on this forum too.. but again most agree about the mindset in the area and want to move! I don't blame them!

What I have a hard time with is the attitude of people that have this desperate drive to move here, and live here for a few months and then express a need for "change". GO HOME!

The beauty of Montana has been there for thousands of years and it's really frustrating to live here, and hear from and see people that want (and aggressively attempt) to change the way things are done here.
We're not Al Quada.. We don't make women wear hoods, nor do we chop the hands off of thieves or cut the tongues out of the mouths of liars.. (although if you steal from or lie to the wrong person you might get an old fashioned western ass whoopin'..)

Addressing the housing issue... People from areas that have inflated home values that take advantage of the rural economy by buying property to resell for profit, or as a tax write off as a small business (We call these California ranches) really do more hurt than benefit for the state as a whole. (You'll hear politicians lie about this all the time and say it's good, but come visit some ranch/farming families and see how it effects them.)

I don't blame the honest immigrants , but we do get a lot of the ones who knew what they were doing when they "back doored" the area they moved from. Now they try and do it here. (by "back dooring" I mean the ones who bought land and homes just to "flip" the property for a profit based on the current economy.) This is how they make their money.., is it an honest trade??
NO! It's not honest to bleed other people for money, even if it's in a roundabout way. PERIOD.
If YOU WANT TO EARN A LIVING HERE GET A JOB THAT HELPS the economy, instead of one that bleeds it.

Another crazy thing is these types of people move in and as the property values and taxes go up take it in the shorts as well, because they pay the inflated prices.. if they were smart they could have SAVED that extra money and bought low and had some security. All it takes is the patience and forethought not to pay too much, along with the willingness to walk out of the broker's office because the asking price is too much.

They think that because they moved to a lower value market that the price was good.. Not if your job won't support the difference... and that is exactly what a lot of newbies are starting to find out. Unfortunately it's effecting the honest ones that simply wanted to better their lives more than the greedy ones that pay attention to the market and know how to work it to their advantage.. (Life is not a poker game folks, as fun as it sounds the house always wins in the long run. )

Some of the new folks think that they figured out how to make "easy" money by "flipping" properties in a slower market based on what they learned in the big city or town they came from, then moved to Montana with the attitude of "who's to blame me for bettering myself?" right?? "I'll just pass my loss on to the next buyer."

WRONG What they do is jack up the prices for the majority of the honest people (and themselves) that are pursuing an honest reason to move out here.... An escape from crime, drugs, gangs, greed etc...

How bad does it suck for people that scrimped and saved to be able to move and then come to face a grossly inflated housing market that they can't afford??..
Especially on Montana salaries? We are in the running for the LOWEST pay and LONGEST HOURS WORKED in the NATION.

And 75% of the newbies don't consider at all the impact they have on the people that have lived here for all or most of their lives. That sucks.

I can't think of a single friend or coworker out here that would turn a blind eye to someone new that was looking for friendship, advice, or opportunity regardless of where they came from, but at the same time almost everyone I know has had at least 2-3 bad run-ins with people trying to gather info from them, or to try to get them to sell out land that has been in their family for generations so they can divide it up and sell it for a profit. Some of them now taxed out and living in apartments instead of on their families ranches.. Makes ya sick.

I'm curious to see how others see this.

Comments??

[TMF2008]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

How bout a pig farm?

Heh heh, reminds me of when my 2 year old sees a picture of a pig he says "pew-ee daddy", (he picked it up at an auction I took him too..)

[heartsinmt]

Quote from Timberwolf
The "Californian" problem goes way back in the rocky mountain west. It's synonymous with people taking up their own causes and views in an area that may not, nor want to share those said views. MOST, but not all of this frustration is based on the "California" attitude.

If someone from out of state is unlucky enough to read your post first

Please explain your definition of the "California" attitude.

My Greatgrandparents and my Grandparents homesteaded outside of Great Falls and most of my family still live here. Unlike you or your friends none of the family have had those "Californians" come in and try to sweep up their land or homes. And believe me plenty of people, Montana citizens included, would love those 6,000 acres.

My Mom moved to California after high school way back when, met my Dad and as a result here I am. I grew up in central California and spent every summer on the ranch here with my Grandparents. I noticed as a child that people I didn't know either loved me or hated me (no in between) when they found out I was from California. Sad to learn that at such a young age!
But every time I left the ranch I felt like I was leaving a part of my heart there.

My husband and I, "a Californian", bought a home in the mountains just west of the Continental Divide 26 years ago. We didn't steal it. We paid for it with hard earned money. We didn't "flip it". After retirement we moved here and would not live anywhere else.

There is still a dislike for Californians but also for those from Oregon and Washington. What I hate to see is the new developments (subdivisions) building up here and there in the State. That is the fault of those in Montana not those from other States.

For anyone considering moving here be prepared for Timberwolf's attitude. And be prepared for a big change in your lifestyle. A large number of people can't except the change and move on. Please don't come here and try to change anything. Don't come and expect someone will plow you out in the winter. Don't move here and expect a mall down the street.

I can say for certain the land and the way of life in the State of Montana should never change. It should be respected and preserved by all!!!

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

If someone from out of state is unlucky enough to read your post first

Please explain your definition of the "California" attitude.

From my perspective its people that are used to too much "convenience". The type that have the attitude that everyone else should be at their beck and call. They think just because they have more money because they are used to California wages that they can do whatever they want no matter who it effects.
Materialism, and the drive to buy up land and gate it all off.. sad.

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

My Greatgrandparents and my Grandparents homesteaded outside of Great Falls and most of my family still live here. Unlike you or your friends none of the family have had those "Californians" come in and try to sweep up their land or homes. And believe me plenty of people, Montana citizens included, would love those 6,000 acres.

My Mom moved to California after high school way back when, met my Dad and as a result here I am. I grew up in central California and spent every summer on the ranch here with my Grandparents. I noticed as a child that people I didn't know either loved me or hated me (no in between) when they found out I was from California. Sad to learn that at such a young age!
But every time I left the ranch I felt like I was leaving a part of my heart there.

My husband and I, "a Californian", bought a home in the mountains just west of the Continental Divide 26 years ago. We didn't steal it. We paid for it with hard earned money. We didn't "flip it". After retirement we moved here and would not live anywhere else.

Good for you. The only problem I have is that long time locals (or their kids) can't afford homes anymore because of the HUGE increases in housing costs that came with the influx of people moving in. Hopefully the current mortgage problem will help a bit. People simply can't afford the prices that they paid and it's now biting the whole economy in the butt. Some of the greed was out of staters trying to exploit our housing market, and some of the locals that joined the bandwagon to make their fortunes. It's really a sad thing. I don't think it's as bad here as it is in other places, but for an example there is a new sub-division by where I live that used to be a ranch. The houses went up in 4 years or so and the place filled up, fast and now at least every third home in the subdivision is up for sale.

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

There is still a dislike for Californians but also for those from Oregon and Washington. What I hate to see is the new developments (subdivisions) building up here and there in the State. That is the fault of those in Montana not those from other States.

Yes and no. The same thing happened to Colorado when over 300,000 people moved from CA in a 7-10 year period. We just don't want the same thing to happen here. My point is why should someone who did the same job as a local in California have the opportunity to buy a house here, and the local guy, who does the same thing not be able to own a home?

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

For anyone considering moving here be prepared for Timberwolf's attitude.

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

And be prepared for a big change in your lifestyle. A large number of people can't except the change and move on. Please don't come here and try to change anything. Don't come and expect someone will plow you out in the winter. Don't move here and expect a mall down the street.

Exactly! See we can even agree on some things.

Originally Posted by heartsinmt

I can say for certain the land and the way of life in the State of Montana should never change. It should be respected and preserved by all!!!

I'll drink to that.

[Joe Doer]

"My point is why should someone who did the same job as a local in California have the opportunity to buy a house here, and the local guy, who does the same thing not be able to own a home?"

The reason people in Montana get paid less for doing the same job in California is because of employers in Montana not paying enough. I move to California from Montana for a period of time and doubled my pay for the same job. The same, exact job.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Joe Doer

The reason people in Montana get paid less for doing the same job in California is because of employers in Montana not paying enough. I move to California from Montana for a period of time and doubled my pay for the same job. The same, exact job.

That's great in theory, but -- that money has to come from somewhere, and for businesses, it comes from raising prices to customers, or from cutting costs (either by downsizing employees, or by outsourcing manufacturing overseas, or both). It doesn't just fall from the sky.

If employees' wages double, the prices that customers pay must go up by approx. a factor of four. Remember that if you give an employee $20/hour instead of $10/hour, the cost to the business isn't just an extra $10/hour. It's also a nearly matching amount that has to be paid in payroll taxes, workman's comp, payroll insurance, matching funds to employee health insurance plans, and various other expenses that are directly proportional to how much your employees are paid. $10/hour better pay means right around $20/hour higher cost to the business.

If prices to customers can't be raised (and very often they can't be, because people will just do without) then if wages are doubled to one employee, another must be fired to make up the deficit.

So -- go right ahead and double those Montana wages -- but be prepared to see an increase in unemployment, and to see the price of the associated goods and services go up FOURFOLD, just so the employer can break even on the difference above what he is now paying out in wages and associated costs.

Either that, or go out of business, or become nothing but a distributor: Even some small businesses have found it's more cost-effective to close their U.S. facility (and all those workers lose their jobs) and to import Chinese-made goods instead.... do you really WANT to encourage more of that??

========

Once upon a time I looked into hiring part-time help. ONE part-time employee would have cost me almost 30% of my GROSS INCOME. Since that was more than my net, and I'm not in a market where I can raise prices to match costs, that idea went out the window. I could have done it if it were just wages. But up to 70% of the cost of an employee is the associated costs that are directly proportional to wages. So that $8/hour grunt would have cost me about $20/hour to do everything legally.

And people still wonder why hiring illegal aliens, and paying them cash under the table, is so popular??

[Joe Doer]

I sold the same products in California as I did in Montana at prices LESS than those in Montana, and at a similar volume. The California employer had higher overhead such as real estate two to three times that of Montana. The MT employer I worked for was simply getting rich. The two partners there are two of the most "well to do" individuals in Montana.

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by Reziac

That's great in theory, but -- that money has to come from somewhere, and for businesses, it comes from raising prices to customers, or from cutting costs (either by downsizing employees, or by outsourcing manufacturing overseas, or both). It doesn't just fall from the sky.

If employees' wages double, the prices that customers pay must go up by approx. a factor of four. Remember that if you give an employee $20/hour instead of $10/hour, the cost to the business isn't just an extra $10/hour. It's also a nearly matching amount that has to be paid in payroll taxes, workman's comp, payroll insurance, matching funds to employee health insurance plans, and various other expenses that are directly proportional to how much your employees are paid. $10/hour better pay means right around $20/hour higher cost to the business.

If prices to customers can't be raised (and very often they can't be, because people will just do without) then if wages are doubled to one employee, another must be fired to make up the deficit.

So -- go right ahead and double those Montana wages -- but be prepared to see an increase in unemployment, and to see the price of the associated goods and services go up FOURFOLD, just so the employer can break even on the difference above what he is now paying out in wages and associated costs.

Either that, or go out of business, or become nothing but a distributor: Even some small businesses have found it's more cost-effective to close their U.S. facility (and all those workers lose their jobs) and to import Chinese-made goods instead.... do you really WANT to encourage more of that??

========

Once upon a time I looked into hiring part-time help. ONE part-time employee would have cost me almost 30% of my GROSS INCOME. Since that was more than my net, and I'm not in a market where I can raise prices to match costs, that idea went out the window. I could have done it if it were just wages. But up to 70% of the cost of an employee is the associated costs that are directly proportional to wages. So that $8/hour grunt would have cost me about $20/hour to do everything legally.

And people still wonder why hiring illegal aliens, and paying them cash under the table, is so popular??

Great post Reziac.. You are right on the money.

As a person who works for one of the few small businesses left, I am fully aware of what I cost my employer. (also one of my best friends, but I never knew them until I was hired) For Montana, I make pretty good money, and am lucky enough to work for an employer that's happy as long as I pay for myself... My usual goal is to bring in at minimum 4 times my cost, and I've only missed it once and that year it was by less than $500 bucks. (The same year my wife and I had our first child... and the year I did the worst was the best bonus I've ever seen. long story.. good people.) THAT kind of friendship is why I stay and will continue to do so until I can pass the torch or breath my last.

For the rest:
Between a big area like CA (or any other huge area... NY, Chitown etc.. ) The economies between here and there are like 2 different countries. Friendship sometimes flows more than money, and I really hope this current economic "crisis" helps people realize that there really is no such thing as "easy" money. With that, perhaps folks will learn that it's better to work hard and feel good about what you do, than to think that the world owes them something etc.

Keep on keepin' on... -TW-

[moritz391]

Originally Posted by sad sam

i was thinking of retiring to montana,i live in florida and have been overrun by the yankee invasion from up north for years and i can see where you are coming from but the folks from the north east are far more pushy and domineering in the way they try to make us southerners see it their way. i have met people from montana here in florida,worked with,lived near,been freind with.i think we southerners and montana natives get along very well,sort of know how it feels,know what i mean?

I'm a 3rd or 4th generation native Montanan on all sides, but all of the 3rd generation stock is southern. This really isn't that unusual. Much of the original (non-native, for course) population movement into MT between 1880 and 1930 came from either Europe or the South. A lot of non-land-owning white Southeners took advantage of land grabs in the west and many came after as well. If you dug down a little bit, you'd probably notice that the after there is a lot of southern culture in montana--even down to the accents of some of the older generations.