The Montanan's problem with outsiders moving in.. (Billings, Missoula: buying, high school)

[lovinCarl]

Originally Posted by moritz391

Gee.. thanks. My great grand parents electrified SW Montana, My grandfather was a state republican party leader, my grandmother and cousins were rodeo queens, I personally have represented Montana nationally both athletically and academically and in international competition. And I don't have a single non-native direct relative except one great grand parent in four generations. But thank you for explaining the state and the people to me.

And for someone complaining about 'holier than thou' attitudes and open hostility, you sure seem to embody them both.

Just for clarification, being open minded to personal differences and caring for the environment are very much Montanan values. Montana elected the first woman to congress before women were even allowed to vote and was easily one of the most prosperous states in the union prior to the 1960's. I also take huge issue with the notion that there is some sort of war on-going between Montanans (don't count yourself as one, please, because you don't exercise the respect or decency to take the lable) and out-of-staters. Not too long ago, I spent my summers living with my grandmother in a very small town on scenic highway 89. She often worked at my uncle's general store and gas station and I spent many a day off from mowing lawns playing cribage with her. I have never had such nice conversations with the people who came through--many of whom had distant connections to our little town. When we weren't at the store, we would often have random vistors stop by the house for a glass of iced sun tea. Especially when bikers pedalling their way across country would drive by, we would invite them to stop and have a chat. I met some of the most interesting and wonderful people-- many from CA and many from Europe-- this way and it eventually inspired me to live abroad for a bit myself.

Your vision of Monana is hateful and sad.

And you are going to compare Kileen to Houston? Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. You can't compare some creationist backwater to the seat of the global energy industry. I was simply saying that the poster should try seeking out a more competitive job market and then look to return home with a little change in his pocket if he felt under such great economic pressure. That being said, there are decent jobs in Montana if you look and there are great places to live affordably as long as you avoid the most expensive spots.

You just seem nasty. From the sound of it, though, you'll probably decide you hate Montana, too, before too long and move off to your next stomping ground soon enough..

LMFAO.. I love how on the internet people always seem to have royalty backgrounds, make 250K a year and live in a mansion. People just can't learn to tell the truth.

I may sound nasty but you sound like a putz. Shocked your family background isn't actually related to a Native American Chieftan. Would have been more impressive (yawn).

Well I'm honest. My family has nothing to do w/Montana (I'm the first to live here as is my hubby). My family has nothing to do w/California either outside of generations of us grew up there. Damn.. we all must be below you Messieur.. hell you got Montana royalty there ... pffft..

w/my french background we have royalty in the family in France.. guess that's not as good as you.. after all we're just french.. ...

I love this state and most of the people we have met (outside of many of the out of staters) hence we picked up, quit our jobs and moved here away from family. I doubt if I would like you though

[moritz391]

Originally Posted by lovinCarl

I love this state and most of the people we have met (outside of many of the out of staters) hence we picked up, quit our jobs and moved here away from family. I doubt if I would like you though

Montana is a place for you to escape the realities of the world because you have so much contempt for it. That's fine for you. But the rest of us had to deal with those realities.

It's lovely that I'm a putz for having such a deep connection to the state into which you claim exclusive insight. And I quite frankly find it obscene to have some misanthrope with no connection to the state other than being holed up in her unibomber shack for two years to call me a moron and suggest I have no understanding of the state for not agreeing with your incredibly self-serving and negative understanding of the state.

Real Montanans are kind, inquisitive, and independent. You are whiny, angry, and all-too ready to violate the western code of live-and-let-live. Please don't claim to speak for us.

[rickers]

Darn just when I thought this thread was going to slide past the bottom of the page someone has to go ahead and bump it back up ! It has turned into a whipping post and we are all tied to it. !
Get it , funny ha ha.

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by moritz391

Becoming angry at the people who move into the state from CA and elsewhere is ill-conceived and is pretty much a typical anti-gentrification argument that one would typically see voiced by residents of failed urban neighborhoods in major cities as the 'yuppies' move in.

Here's a thought to ponder-- I am a graduate of a class AA montanan school. I also happened to be the valedictorian who graduate in three years, immediately moved to Europe at 17, and then came back to get an ivy league education and settle on the east coast. Staying in MT was never even considered an option for me personally or my family. Further, I don't know a single person I went to school with who remained in the state. The only person I know still in the state is my brother, who only remained because he had a little crystal meth problem--how very late 90's. Based upon alumni directories, in fact, a full 70% of graduates of my school from the LAST 30 YEARS had out of state addresses.

Why? Because Montana, like many remote rural areas, has typically offered very little in the way of economic or cultural opportunity. And like most rural northern states, there is a long history a brain drain of home-grown tallent and bodies far away from state borders. So the state is pretty much left to grow older and poorer as its young flee.

By the time I graduated from high school ten years ago, the problem was so bad in fact that Montana boasted the lowest average income in the country despite offering one of the finest public education sytems of any state.

'Locals' need to stop being affraid of 'new comers' and realize that they are in fact the state's lifeline. Montana has the rare benefit of being exceptionally beautiful and offering resort-style living in 'real world' small cities and towns. And this beauty means that new blood is flowing into the state and breathing new life into the economy and its institutions. I can guarantee that South Dakota would love to have the influx of families and capital that Montana is experiencing. For while SD and MT looked a lot like each other economically and demographically for much of the 20th century, look for MT to pull away in the 21st century.

Are there problems of integrating new poluations and cultures into Montana's relatively homogonous 'native-born' (anglo) population? Of course. But guess what--that's called life. There are almost no completely stable populations anywhere in the world and most of human development is the product of intermingling populations.

If you are upset about the price of land in Bozeman, I would suggest that you look toward any number of extremely affordable and still relatively attractive locales throughout the state such as Great Falls and Butte. I choose to move to Philadelphia five years ago instead of NYC because I found most of what I was looking for in Phila for 1/3rd the price of NYC while offering basically the same earnings potential. Now that philadelphia is thriving and NYC is stalling, that bet paid off.

In terms of Bozeman, I'm actually starting to feel like all of the influx of educated outsiders (with educated 'insiders' running to the coasts) might actuallly make it possible for me to move BACK to montana and bring a very nice company with me ready to offer a fair number of the high-paying professional jobs which are generally so hard to come by in Montana.

Instead of investing so much energy into feeling victimized, I would suggest that you look at the situation for opportunity. If you are struggling personally--do something about it. Move to Texas for awhile and live cheaply with no taxes and high incomes. (Best Cities to Live, Work and Play - Kiplinger.com) Make money and come back if you want! That's what I'm trying to do. And at the risk of sounding like an ass, selling my townhouse out here for $2m and buying twenty acres in the Bridger canyon sure feels good and my parents (still in MT) couldn't be prouder.

By spending SO much time whining, I hate to say that many montanan's are adapting the most annoying 'outsider' trait of all.

You make some great points in your post. We are still not going to move somewhere else to make money. Our family is here, and we want to continue to raise our kids here. I'd trade the bigger bank account for the ability to do what we do day to day anytime. I might not get the chance to go on a month long vacation, but I can take my boy fishing after work and on the weekends, and we can take the time we do get off camping and hunting.

I've been working on ways to help the financial situations in the business I work with, and so far it's worked. As the contractors and fly-by-night builders have finally started their exodus, our business is busier than ever, and we've hired 3 more people into good paying positions in the last year. Who knows? Maybe we will get caught up with the rest of the world wage-wise, and I hope you are correct in your statement about Montana pulling out this century, I just hope she keeps her heart and doesn't compromise too much.

I don't agree with the way the housing market has gone up so fast lately, (the business practices that is) and the current economic situation proves that if folks would have been more honest and straightforward with their businesses, it wouldn't be so tough for some.

I also don't thing that resort-style living in real world small cities and towns can really happen. Those towns that start like that end up as resorts, not towns, overpriced and tend to fill up with people that have an "elitist" sort of vibe to them.
ie: Aspen, Vail, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Telluride etc... There isn't a small town feel to those places to me unless I'm holed up with a bunch of broke, good hearted ski bums, and even that feels more like college dorm life than small town living to me.

Thanks for the post. I hope my replies don't sound too harsh... I've never been much of a verbalist, but the way the inflation has been lately it can be hard to keep up with, not just financially, but with people's attitudes as well.

I hope you find your way back to Bridger Canyon someday, but I also hope it doesn't cost ya $2M.

[moritz391]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

You make some great points in your post. We are still not going to move somewhere else to make money. Our family is here, and we want to continue to raise our kids here. I'd trade the bigger bank account for the ability to do what we do day to day anytime. I might not get the chance to go on a month long vacation, but I can take my boy fishing after work and on the weekends, and we can take the time we do get off camping and hunting.

I've been working on ways to help the financial situations in the business I work with, and so far it's worked. As the contractors and fly-by-night builders have finally started their exodus, our business is busier than ever, and we've hired 3 more people into good paying positions in the last year. Who knows? Maybe we will get caught up with the rest of the world wage-wise, and I hope you are correct in your statement about Montana pulling out this century, I just hope she keeps her heart and doesn't compromise too much.

I don't agree with the way the housing market has gone up so fast lately, (the business practices that is) and the current economic situation proves that if folks would have been more honest and straightforward with their businesses, it wouldn't be so tough for some.

I also don't thing that resort-style living in real world small cities and towns can really happen. Those towns that start like that end up as resorts, not towns, overpriced and tend to fill up with people that have an "elitist" sort of vibe to them.
ie: Aspen, Vail, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Telluride etc... There isn't a small town feel to those places to me unless I'm holed up with a bunch of broke, good hearted ski bums, and even that feels more like college dorm life than small town living to me.

Thanks for the post. I hope my replies don't sound too harsh... I've never been much of a verbalist, but the way the inflation has been lately it can be hard to keep up with, not just financially, but with people's attitudes as well.

I hope you find your way back to Bridger Canyon someday, but I also hope it doesn't cost ya $2M.

I hope Bridger canyon doesn't cost me $2m either! I am desperate to get off the east coast and get home. I have to say that Bozeman's real estate prices make absolutely no sense and there are problems elsewhere in the state as well.

I think I assumed you were younger in your post for some reason, so I didn't mean to make assumptions. The question of the local market is quite difficult. My parents are both professionals and respected in their field. They manage to make a quite a good living by middle-class Montanan standards, but could easily have made 3-5x their income had they been willing to leave. I don't questions their motives for staying, but they could have easily retired ten years ago and come home to enjoy a more leisurely life.

I guess my broader point is that the injection of new population is essential to the future of the state and shouldn't be feared. Without doubt, it can be quite ugly. I spent my many a summer on the lake near big fork with my mother's family prior to my grandma passing away, for example. I went back last year for the first time in fifteen years and was blown away. There was absolutely no main street left. The entire commercial area had been overtaken by real estate offices selling $2-20m lake-front homes. Worse, there was almost no foot traffic. I actually left after only a day feeling that my once-favorite place had been destroyed. The only paralell I coudl think of was actually Manhattan. Manhattan has become so expensive and so corperate in the past five years that there are no cafes, no artists, and little of the culture which once made it so attractive. The whole place has pretty much just become one giant over-priced mall with seven bank-of-america branches on every block.

I spent far more of my free time (3+ months a year), though, with my other grand mother in a small town in the little belts. It's in an area with no real economy. All of the mines shut down after WWII and the railroad pulled out, leaving what became a recreational community serving great falls about an hour away. Most of the residents through the 1980's were retiries who grew up in the area when the population was greater and had family land. That population is quite aged at this point--mostly in their 80s and 90s--and the area is starting to see a very modest in-migration from out-of-state. There are a very few wealthy residents building massive estates hidden away, but they are mostly retired police officers, small business owners, and e-consultants looking for a simple life. Prices have gone up modestly, but it's still quite affordable. What's interesting is that whereas Big Fork used to be so much more attractive, the relative lack of development has made the Little Belts much more attractive to me.

I mainly grew up in Billings and have to say that I think it will fair better in the long run than Bozeman or Missoula. (I'm still moving to bozeman, but I want a more rural life). Billngs was always looked down upon as too urban and lacking in sex appeal. Similarly, though, it now seems like it might be a more attractive place due to its focus on urban planning and smarter growth versus the revolting sprawl culture of the more 'glamorous' towns.

In terms of the comment about resort-style living in 'real' towns and cities, I don't mean that everywhere should become Aspen. I guess I mean that Montana has the benefit of having some of the most attractive wilderness and recreation areas in the country very close to real cities and towns with great public schools and real services (hospitals, grocery stores, etc...).

I really think the key for Montana is embracing smart growth. Montana needs to stop ignoring the in-migration from elsewhere in the country and look at ways to attract more families and young people looking to become part of a community rather than just build a second home.

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Montanans need to start taking ownership over the prosperity out there and work on closing the gap.

In terms of house prices, I am told by very good sources to expect a 25% reduction in bozeman at the least. I think Big Sky could come down further. Places like Billings are undergoing more standard adjustments. Hopefully the return to affordability wil refocus development activity on sustainable communities.

[Zammy]

I'm born and raised in los angeles. I've visited montana about a dozen times and always have a good time when I'm there. I find the people there to be like people anywhere. Nobody has ever treated me differently for being from calif.
Anyway, I read alot about people not wanting californians to move to montana, wyoming and many other places. How about the other side of the coin? People moving to calif has made it a very expensive place to live. If you ask 100 people on the streets of los angeles where they are from you will find that maybe 10 are from los angeles. The rest are from the midwest, east coast and latin america. Real californians wouldn't be leaving calif to go to montana if all those folks weren't coming here. This place was heaven when I was growing up, it is now a crime ridden, polluted place with too much traffic, violent public schools, socialist government and way too many people. I keep tabs with people I went to high school with and more than 75% of them have left the state because of these things. The sales tax in los angeles is now 9.25% and will be 10% by 2010.
Now, when you see californians moving to your beautiful state you need to ask yourselves something: Are these native californians who can no longer afford to or can stand living in california? Or are these people who moved to california and are now moving to montana with calif license plates on their car?
I would love to stay here but I feel like a stranger in my own city. I will not be able to afford living here in a few years. I will have no choice but to move out of state.

[magoomafoo]

It is possible for acceptance. Although smaller towns are usually harder on outsiders, it is possible to be accepted. Keep in mind lifestyles. Are you looking at farming/ranching small towns? If you are not a farmer or rancher or know nothing about it probably not the best choice. Looking for the great outdoors, mountains? You better not be against hunting/fishing/logging/mining ect....What I am trying to say is seriously consider your own lifestyle and whether it will fit into where you are moving to. If you belong to PETA then don't move to a town where hunting is a religion because you will be greatly outnumbered. You will have to make changes in your lifestyle but you should not have to change what you believe in. Do your homework and choose a place that best suits you.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Zammy

Anyway, I read alot about people not wanting californians to move to montana, wyoming and many other places. How about the other side of the coin? People moving to calif has made it a very expensive place to live.

Yep, which is exactly what Montanans are trying to avoid -- turning the state into a land of cultural foreigners and losing Montana in the process. As you say, it already happened to California, which was once a wonderful place to live. No longer.

[Zammy]

Reziac,
The weather and remoteness will keep montana from ever going the way of california.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Zammy

Reziac,
The weather and remoteness will keep montana from ever going the way of california.

Tell that to Bozeman