Some info on tiny towns, please (Bozeman, Livingston: real estate, credit card, houses)

[2001L]

Hello. My girlfriend and I are planning a move to Montana. We're currently in Pittsburgh where we've been our whole lives. The weather here is ok during the summer but the winters are horribly gray and dreary. We don't mind the cold weather or snow though. Just the grayness from November through March. It really makes us feel depressed not seeing the sun shine.

The people in the city are starting to get to us too. Pittsburgh only has ~300,000 people but sometimes it feels like a million. Everyone drives a big SUV, no one is courteous while driving, and what little land is left is being bought up and made into huge developments.

We're both in our 20's (late for me, early for her) and aren't tied down by kids or careers. If we could find a place tomorrow, I'm sure we'd move just as quickly.

We like Montana because of the forested areas, parks, and abundance of water. We're outdoor people who would be satisfied working in a garden, going for a hike, or taking our dogs for a swim. Anything outside away from a computer or TV interests us.

After researching a bit, we have our area narrowed down to the towns south of Livingston, further down route 89. Towns like Emigrant, Miner, Pray, and Pine Creek. Those areas attract us because Yellowstone runs by them and they are surrounded by national forest on each side. We're looking for at least 15-20 acres and wouldn't be opposed to buying just a plot of land to build on. Like I said, we can work our careers around where we end up.

Can someone give us a little more info on Pine Creek, Emigrant, Miner, and Pray? Or even Corwin Springs, Jardine, and Chico Hot Springs? Is the weather south of Livingston that much different than Livingston's?? Thank you for any help!! The internet is a great tool but we can only find a limited amount of info on these smaller towns...and unfortunately, we're too far away to drive out some weekend.

[ElkHunter]

Originally Posted by 2001L

Can someone give us a little more info on Pine Creek, Emigrant, Miner, and Pray? Or even Corwin Springs, Jardine, and Chico Hot Springs?

When you say tiny, you are right!

Most of those towns are a single street. A couple are two streets. Corwin Springs has 4 or 5 streets. But a couple of those are on secondary roads. Could still be gravel, but might have been paved.

I would say there's little to no hope for employment in those towns which means a commute up to Livingston or elsewhere.

The elevation is not bad, around 4000-4300 ft. Most are located in the valley. Not sure how the snow storms react in that part of the woods.

[2001L]

Oh yeah, travel for work isn't a problem. We figured working around the Livingston area would be a given. Traveling for work would be worth it if we could have the naturey, outdoor, country feel at home.

[rangerider]

The area south of Livingston is generally referred to as Paradise Valley, at least as far the the Yankee Jim canyon. Most of the little towns you name are but wide spots in the road, and a good deal of that valley is becoming another playground for the wealthy. Land values have skyrocketed since the early nineties, and places like Chico Hot Springs have mutated from nice little getaway nooks to crowded and loud. 'Course, compared to what your present location is like it may not seem so bad. A lot of us grew up with things a lot quieter than they are now.

The climate up the canyon is much like Livingston; the Gallatins on the west and the Absaroka-Beartooth on the east capture a lot of the weather so the valley doesn't get the snowfall. When it does, the wind carries a lot of it into the gullies. 'Cause it does blow down that valley, and a lot. That's one of the reasons the CUT cult built down there - they figured if we underwent a nuclear holocaust the prevalent weather systems would keep fresh air intact. In picking a home or land, it's vital to understand how that wind blows across your property because we aren't talking gentle breezes here, we're talking steady, gusting winds, sometimes gales, and they don't let up for sometimes days on end. There are a few areas in the valley I know of that it basically blows over the top of or beside, and they are few and far between.

There's no doubt about the fact that's it's one heck of a pretty spot. The Yellowstone can flood, though a fair share of the valley's run it is confined to a bit deeper bed. We haven't had a major runoff year in a long, long time. The last one of any consequence was in the mid-nineties, and lots of people lost acreage and homes. Best to be up off the river and creek bottoms. And in part to your reference to there being a lot of water, you're right in some respects. However, it pays to understand a little of the geology in the valley with regard to a well. As you know, a lot of that area is very young geologically and in close proximity to the Yellowstone caldera. Many of the springs and wells have a certain degree of contamination, be it sulfur, arsenic, or the like. It's good to have a well log and sample of anyplace you consider buying. We have some arsenic at our place, but it's not too bad. And despite it being home to many creeks and the river, the valley is a semi-arid area, and we have been in a drought scenario for over a decade. Plan accordingly.

The further you get towards Yellowstone Park (i.e., Corwin, Electric, Gardiner, Jardine) the drier it gets and the more expensive the places are. I haven't been to Jardine for awhile; I did a bunch of work in there when they reopened the gold mine in 1988-89 and the CUT built up all the area west of the river in Mol Heron and Cinnabar Basin on into the early nineties. It was just getting discovered then; there were some farms and scattered places south toward Gardiner. Don't really know the status of the mine now, but there are some houses and a couple outfitters that live up that way. Maybe someone here knows more about that area than I. I know some folks on a place outside of Corwin - they have a small ranch/farm and outfitting business. They are hanging with it, but like others starve some from time to time and worry about the introduced wolves killing their livestock and dogs.

Pine Creek kind of hangs with it from year to year. There's kind of a nice little cafe there with some good music on Friday evenings - we go over a few times a year. A lot of the Pine Creek/Mill Creek area I think of as pretty built up now, but again it may look pretty wide open to you. Pray is kinda the same way - there's a small place within eyeshot of a multi-million dollar layout that may or may not be inhabited during the year. Kind of a mixed-bag with some farmers and ranchers that are trying to make a go of it. Throughout the length of the valley, there are lots of roads going up drainages and into small hidden valleys where there are homes and land - just watch how the grass and trees lay or the snow drifts.

Overall, I like that area and think it's one of the prettiest in the state. Not crazy about that much wind, but it's better than living where the air stagnates in the winter, that's for sure. Most of the place has less than good soils, and most of the best is still being farmed or ranched to some degree. Livingston is a nice town; I much prefer it to Bozeman mostly because despite the influx of wealthy people it hasn't completely sold itself out. If you enjoy history, especially the railroad, there is a great museum there and a really nice old restored depot. The county fair and roundup is a good one, and there are some community events that are a lot of fun to go to. Livingston fought to stay with it some years ago when the railroad pulled out - there were some very hard times there and folks had to bootstrap it hard to exist. I think that's why the place feels like it still has character. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Good luck.

[2001L]

Wow! Thank you for all the great info! And I'm sure our definitions of 'crowded area' differ quite a bit. Even a town with 25,000 people would seem quiet and relaxing to us at this point.

It looks like we'll have to take a little vacation this year and check some of the places out. Livingston was actually our first choice to move to, but we thought property might be too expensive so our next best option was to move south....but I guess from what you said, some of those areas aren't any better price wise. That makes sense because they're closer to Yellowstone. Maybe an outlying area of Livingston is possible after all? Remote areas would be feasible depending on the access to utilities.

Looking at my map, Madison County seems to have a few options that we could look into....I assume the weather (temp wise) is similar to Gallatin County. Money wise, our max budget will be around 250k-300k. Again, just buying acreage is a very real possibility. Especially if we want 15-20 acres in our price range.

[rangerider]

I think with a budget like that you should be able to scrounge around and do okay in finding a place. The Madison valley is coming around and land values are going up, but not hugely yet. Don't know if the national real estate picture is going to really affect us too much or not; there a lot of listings on the market but I don't see prices really falling that much. The places that are you don't want anyway.

But as in a lot of life, the acquiring isn't really the problem. It's the maintaining and existing here that presents the challenge. I would encourage you to look at some stats for wages and cost of living here. If you are business owners and can run things from your home that changes the outlook quite a bit. Our salaries have definitely gone up in the last ten or twelve years, but overall still fall behind the cost of living. In a two income household with fairly simple needs it can be done and in good fashion. But to be honest I don't see many people with that kind of restraint, especially when influenced by people with considerable means (or multiple credit cards) and the toys to prove it. The Jones' have a powerful influence on the weak of heart...

[2001L]

Fairly simple needs describes us EXACTLY. We both have jobs that earn in the mid 20k's which isn't a lot but we can certainly manage. We actually want a very very simple and honest lifestyle. The less material things, the better. We'd be much happier saving money and going on a bike/hike instead of buying a new 'toy' of some sort.

It's funny you mention the Jones'. They are exactly who we are trying to get away from.

[bigtrees]

OK, need to catch you up.

Most of these towns are one-horse towns. Chico Hot Springs, for example, is just that: A hot springs resort. No town, no post office, no bar (except for the one in the resort). And there is nothing around it - except open land.

Most of the places you're talking about are not forested and are actually open prairie. There isn't much water in the area except for the Yellowstone river that runs through Paradise Valley. It's very dry and they don't get a lot of snow or precipitation.

It's beautiful but since it's wide open you can see for a 100 miles and the scenery doesn't change much. I prefer bike riding when I go up and down hills and see a lot of scenery change rather than look at the same mountains for 100 miles.

There's very little going on in Paradise Valley (in my opinion) and it would take a special person to live there year-around. I'm a Montana native and would go nuts living in Paradise Valley - even though I love to visit the area and find it beautiful.

[rubydi]

better check out the employment scene. moving to a rustic, rural area is great, but how you goin to pay your bills? cost of living might be lower, but pay is comperable if not lower. Anywhere in Montana is going to be cold and snowy in winter, but you can bet on a clear blue sky almost every day or at least part of the day!!

[rubydi]

what happens when the roads are closed in the winter? can you afford to stay home or stay in town?