Montana to Secede? (Great Falls, Lincoln: home, rent, lease)

[Radek]

*hands a few guns over to rangerider*

No Montanan should be without a FEW firearms.

Good points. I'm glad you revived this thread. The discussion was just getting good.

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by rangerider

I kind of feel like I'm bringing a knife to a gunfight here, and the fight's already gone. But since I just wrote a letter to our governor on this subject, I feel like I've got to chime in.

BTW, thanks to all of you on this thread, good discussion, lots to ruminate on.

Look, anyone with any gray in their beard has seen political posturing before. This time is no different, but I think that some noise is better than no noise at all. While we certainly have people here who do bear watching, most of us are average citizens with perhaps an extra degree of watchfulness and desire to have more than average independence. That being said, I think it would be an interesting scenario indeed if the feds said, "Okay, you want sucession, have at it!" Like the other states, we are constantly at the trough of federal dollars, and fear of losing that would cow even the most fervent policymaker in Helena or Washington. Like ElkHunter and GoingHome2TX said, we are way dependent on those funds, and we aren't a self-sustaining state anyway.

As to how it ties in with Real ID, I would agree that nationally we may be behind in security, but the big bear in the RealID room with me is the potential for abuse. I have had my ID lifted twice, both by outfits that have all kinds of protections in place. Subsequently my info is scattered to who knows where, and I have to basically observe a very expensive and time-consuming lifelong process of open-range law - fencing the bull out of my pasture. Ever been chased by one? I have, and it really doesn't matter whether they get all of you or just a part, you still hurt. And occasionally you compromise your safety just trying to get away. Not to mention your dignity. I have no faith whatsoever that the privacy of that card's contents will be respected, nor the potential RFID capabilities not exploited. As grizzfan said, an ID that identifies me and what I can drive, fly, gain access to, or etc. I don't have a problem with. The problem lies with the increasing level of technology that allows the imbed of much more than that, and therein lies the increasing potential for abuse. Nary a year, or for that matter, a month goes by that we don't find out someone somewhere has taken a soft database or laptop and sold a bunch of information down the pike, and not always for something as innocuous as advertising and telemarketers. We used to take it as a given that our government, businesses, banks, etc. we provided information to would guard it well. Now we know that although they might have the best intentions, such is not the case.

Now according to what I understand, I'm going to be over the age limit on what they consider dangerous enough to warrant having a new ID. What they haven't told me yet is that I'll have to have one anyway because of the HAZMAT endorsement on my commercial license. So unless I'm prepared to secede from my job, I'm reasonably certain that I'm going to be stuck in one fashion or another. Much like our state's situation, I imagine. But I'll probably still make noise about it, and figure a way to keep it just a card and not an RFID marker that tracks my goings and comings. You can hack cell phones to quiet the GPS in them, so someone will figure the cards, too.

OK, said my peace, thread goes back to the big guns....

Very good point!

It's funny to hear all this RealID stuff back on the newsfront not too long after I got a letter from the Veterans Administration telling me to be careful because my personal information had been compromised.

At least the VA sent out warnings instead of trying to cover up!

[rangerider]

That was the deal with the ID theft from a local brokerage house a few months ago that had me steamed. We hadn't had an account there for years, and I had asked and been assured that they didn't keep any information. Lo and behold, I heard about the theft on the radio, for pete's sake, one morning, and it was several days before we got anything in the mail.

Now here's the kicker: I called the 1-800# they gave me to get the lowdown on whether our IDs were among those stolen. That was affirmative, and when I asked the representative when the theft occurred, he said, "On or about the night of the 27th/28th of last December." You could have knocked me over with a feather. I kind of felt sorry for the guy, 'cause you could tell by the way he answered he had been drug over the coals by a lot of people. So I politely thanked him for his time, and tried calling the local office to perhaps interact on a bit more personal level, but was deflected back to the 800#. I would have liked to known if any of their upper management knows what a good hacker can do with someone's identity for a month. I'll buy the being broken-into part, but not telling me within 24 hours does not sit well....

Now this is a relatively small, private organization. Same with the one before that "lost" my stuff. Tell me again how a nationally based federal system of ID utilizing electronic/computer driven technologies that everyone from Al-Quaeda to 14 y.o. Bobby down the street are trying to crack every day is going to stay secure? I'd really like to know what the obsolescence window on RFID security technology is right now. You can call me a bit paranoid if you want, but the time and money I've spent trying to keep the bad guys from cleaning me out is substantial, and despite what the FTC says about them being your best friend on this the ball is still in your court..... Permanently.

/need to go pitch hay and cool off
//eyes cupboard where 'the good stuff' is kept for company...

[Kristynwy]

Just wanted to interject a point peacefully in support those who brought up the subject of the Civil war back in the day being fought over states rights, not slavery...

Here are some excellent books to consider... Some of these books are written by some professionals and accredited scholars.

Here is a list of books about Black Confederates who supported the South's cause for State's rights...
Amazon.com: Why I Wave the Confederate Flag, Written by a Black Man: The End of ******ism and the Welfare State: Anthony Hervey: Books

Amazon.com: Black Confederates: Charles Barrow,J. H. Segars,R. B. Rosenburg: Books

Here are some books about the "true Lincoln" and what the Civil war was really fought about...
Amazon.com: The South Was Right!: James Ronald Kennedy,Walter Donald Kennedy: Books

Amazon.com: The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War: Thomas Dilorenzo: Books

Amazon.com: Why Not Freedom!: America's Revolt Against Big Government: James Ronald Kennedy,Walter Donald Kennedy: Books

Amazon.com: Lincoln Unmasked: What You're Not Supposed to Know About Dishonest Abe: Thomas Dilorenzo: Books

Amazon.com: When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession: Charles Adams: Books

Amazon.com: War Crimes Against Southern Civilians: Walter Brian Cisco: Books

My personal opinion is ever since the Civil war states rights have been lost... and it is happening in Montana and other states all over the country...

I know the Civil War and states rights was only briefly mentioned in this thread, but I thought states rights was a very pertinent issue that relates to what is going on in Montana also... And if a person really does their research they will find out in fact the South was *NOT so far off on everything...(opps I forgot to say they were not far off and accidentally said they were off and had to edit this post to correct myself sorry for the confusion... what I meant to say is they were not so far off...) I was born and raised in the northwest, and I did the research and thought outside the box and realized that myself eventually...

Just some food for thought...

[Radek]

The South was quite far off, but that doesn't change the fact that they fought for their rights.

Thanks for your input Kristynwy

[Kristynwy]

You are welcome...

I used to think they were far off too... but like I said I did the research and changed my opinion...

It is always better to consider both sides of the story first and then make an opinion...

And I respect you Radek because it sounds like you have researched both views and come to your own conclusion... to me that is a lot better that those who make a blind conclusion with out even doing the research...

take care

[grizzfan]

Oh brother. Dear Lord God Moderator, end this thread, please.

[Kristynwy]

wow... grizz I hope that wasn't directed at me just because I posted some books????

I am not telling anyone to agree with me... but to look at both sides that is all...

Part of what makes these forums great are both sides.... just because we all don't agree on one thing or another doesn't mean we need to name call and be rude and sarcastic to others?

I am sorry I upset you... just trying to be helpful... that is all...

Take care

[Radek]

Grizz, I noticed you stopped posting anything of value at the same time you stopped making side comments about mental health.

[GoingHome2TX]

Now that it seems the moment of irrational thought fueled only by emotion has passed us by, hopefully we can resume to be logical, mature adults in stating our sides, no matter how contrasting they might be. I have no problem with hearing any opposing stance to a view I hold and welcome the debate from such, provided its kept at a level of maturity.

The issue of the Civil War that I bought up was not one of slavery. Slavery was the last thought from my mind. Had the outcome been different, I even feel the South would have abolished slavery in time. It wasn't until several years after the Civil War that even the North recognized African-Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, and other non-Anglo races as human! This is a bad stain on the country's history that we must approach with remembrance of to the point of not repeating, but neither should we dwell on this fact.

I was born in a city that had Zachary Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, Franklin Pierce, Jefferson Davis, and Robert E. Lee all present at one single point in her history. Maybe this fact helps me see both sides of the fence better than others. I do not know for certain. However, I find that there are valid points to both the Southern and Northern sides of the war, and as such do not side myself with either faction. So, please do not think just because I defend one underlying important issue that the South had as being a Southern sympathizer and bigot. On the same token, I do not believe the North was absolved of all atrocities and faults of her own.

What I do firmly believe is that the South had some very justifiable reasons for her actions as a general unit. Each state within the Confederacy had some unique reasons that motivated their actions, but what has always been a common factor was the right of each state to govern herself with less interference from someone elsewhere. A prime example of the South feeling the issue of their states rights being violated started much earlier than the war itself.

In the late 1820's, a series of tariffs were passed that made the southern states feel singled out. Agriculture was getting excessively taxed, and the industries in the northern states were feeling less of the economic strain. The issue of states rights comes into play when you consider that the South had been getting taxed without representation, or very minimal representation at best. It was only a matter of time before the South would rise up and say enough is enough. After all, this was one of the very reasons why the American Colonies had fought the Revolutionary War against the British not even 100 years earlier.

The relevancy to the issue of the South's secession and the states right issue of the (highly unlikely) possibility that Montana secedes are identical, if the underlying reasons for why the violation is felt to exist is not drastically different. Montana isn't getting taxed like the South was, but one of her (and the rest of America's) rights granted from the start of the country is being threatened. This is no different than the South getting taxed without representation.

Now, as I have said from the beginning, I see absolutely no possible way for Montana to back up her words. Once again, I will reference my home state because of the relevancy being very high on this one. As a native Texan, I feel it safe to say that my forefathers had a much higher understanding of what happens when a state secedes than Montanans have. Also understood is a greater grasp of what is needed to maintain a sovereign nation. While I personally haven't been there, just as no one else reading this has, I still feel adamant that lesson is handed down generation to generation more firmly in Texas than it is even understood here.

Also as a Texan, I feel we get stereotyped for being 'loud-mouthed' and 'braggarts'. While this issue takes a whole different topic to discuss in itself and I am personally only going to say that what we typically brag about, we backed up historically, it brings up one point that I have with grandstanding. That point is that when you grandstand on an issue, like the governor of Montana is doing right now, you better be capable of backing it up. Idle threats and empty words only demean the cause that one is bantering for. While a lot of people seem to agree that its good that he blows hot air at the media like he is doing, I am not one of them. Nor do I agree on just rolling over on the issue and pretending it is not there and does not exist.

And remember that I am a major supporter of the right to own and bear arms and feel that firearm control is nothing more than polite way of sneaking in a way to control people.

Radek, you seemed to miss the point entirely of my previous statement regarding the smoking ban. It had nothing to do with the possible health issue or anything of the such. It had everything to do with idle threats, and even to an extent the very issue of taxation with out representation and states rights. But, being as how that is very likely of venturing off the scope of this topic as well, I say leave it as it be, dead, buried and decaying. But, understand where I am coming from on the main issue at hand.