Vehicle Inspections (Missoula, Bozeman, Whitefish: credit, smog, debt)

[bigtrees]

Originally Posted by jimj

So let me see if I understand what you're saying, your ok with the cars that make your eyes water and make you hack up a lung when you're behind them as they pump out clouds of oil smoke or are runing so rich you could run two cars on what comes out the pipe just to avoid any regulation at all? Or the cars that have rusted through so much that the mufflers and half the exhaust pipe are either gone or dragging on the road so when they pull up next to you it's impossible to hear yourself think? How about the ones that leave half a quart of oil in the parking space at the store? Or better yet, the ones that are runing on at least one "doughnut" tire and the others are so bald you can count the rusted steel belts and you've seen it that way all summer?

Driving an unsafe vehicle is already illegal under MCA 61-9-109.

I am against government regulation in general, and specifically against people who move to Montana because of how nice it is and then start wanting to change and regulate everything.

I haven't seen a significant problem with smoking tailpipes in Montana to believe we need to start new regulations, and since many of the older cars are going to the junkyard every year, the problems will decline over time. So no, I'm against tailpipe regulations. I think a person would have a hard time making a case that tailpipe regulations would provide a measurable improvement in the air quality of the state.

[Kristynwy]

Most people have common sense... and regulation is not the answer...
I think Montana is fine the way it is and doesn't appear to have any smog problems, that I know of.

The skies and clear and beautiful... heck it's called Big Sky Country for a reason....

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by bigtrees

Driving an unsafe vehicle is already illegal under MCA 61-9-109.

I am against government regulation in general, and specifically against people who move to Montana because of how nice it is and then start wanting to change and regulate everything.

I haven't seen a significant problem with smoking tailpipes in Montana to believe we need to start new regulations, and since many of the older cars are going to the junkyard every year, the problems will decline over time. So no, I'm against tailpipe regulations. I think a person would have a hard time making a case that tailpipe regulations would provide a measurable improvement in the air quality of the state.

I'm for less government regulation also. Seems to me that if we spent more time worrying about our own lives vs. trying to fix everything everyone else is doing wrong we'd get a lot farther ahead.

I do a lot of work with law enforcement and you wouldn't believe the influx of stupid calls they get as the population growth happens here. Little things like a bag of trash on the highway.. Sheesh.. Drive around it, or even better pick it up and move it, don't call 911 so some poor cop has to take time out from his or her 300 other duties to take care of that kind of thing.

Whatever happened to good old fashioned self reliance? Consideration? Common sense?

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Kristynwy

Most people have common sense... and regulation is not the answer...
I think Montana is fine the way it is and doesn't appear to have any smog problems, that I know of.

The skies and clear and beautiful... heck it's called Big Sky Country for a reason....

Have y'all taken a look at the air quality reports lately? Take a look at the grades that the "big sky" gets and then decide how clean you think it is. How about an "F" in particulate pollution?
I'm not big on regulations either but unfortunately rules sometimes have to be made to get the people who could care less about others or are too ignorant or think that THEIR rights trump all others to do what is responsible. I'm not worrying about others as I don't have time for that but I do worry about me and mine being killed by a junker spinning out of control as his last remaining steel belt lets loose or having to roll up my windows and shut off all outside air on a nice spring day so I can breath without being asphixiated.
As for the car thing, take a drive from Coram to Missoula and you'll see plenty, or spend some time around the flathead valley. We get people from Browning all the way to Polson that drive around here in vehicles I wouldn't put my mother in law in.

As for the unsafe vehicle law on the books, when I finally do see a cop around (which is kind of rare, not that I'm complaining about that) they are so busy keeping up with major things that I'm sure that's the last thing on their minds and rightfully so.
I'd love to see this place stay the same and the government butt out but I also don't want to see it trashed by those who could really care less and think what the heck, this is "big sky country" we've got plenty of open space to trash before it bothers US....

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by jimj

this is "big sky country" we've got plenty of open space to trash before it bothers US....

You make a good point Jimj.. Granted I have a beater old pickup that I love, and I maintain it because it's a good truck and I can actually work on it.. (and it would most likely pass a test too)

I do meet people that move here and think that since there is less regulation that it's party time and really abuse things.. Thats the opposite extreme, but a lot of those people end up leaving because nobody wants to do business with them, or sometimes they end up in jail.

My thoughts are more about personal responsibility in making things better. If the responsible individual gives that up to the government its another loss for freedom's sake.. The government shouldn't need to be a babysitter, and when it acts that way it seems like more people act like children that need a babysitter to get a handout. I'm tired of footing the bill for people like that and their numbers keep growing with every generation it seems.

[bigtrees]

Originally Posted by jimj

Have y'all taken a look at the air quality reports lately? Take a look at the grades that the "big sky" gets and then decide how clean you think it is. How about an "F" in particulate pollution?

The air quality issues in Whitefish have been an age old concern and my entire life Whitefish (and the Flathead in general) have been fighting it. The particulates are not caused by smoky gasoline cars, though, it's generally diesel vehicles (logging trucks and semi trucks) that cause more of the particulate than cars that puff blue smoke. The other issue that Whitefish has been fighting for years (without success) is the place where the particulates are measured is right near the railyard where the diesel engines sit and idle all day long. I never figured out why they don't shut them off when they're not using them but that's a subject for another thread.

[jimj]

Big, I'm aware that diesel trucks are one part of the problem along with open burning, fireplaces and Montana smog (road dust) and I'd hope you'd agree that these offending cars don't help the air either. Since diesel trucks came up, I can't believe the amount of them that have cut off the cat converter to put on large pipes and mufflers so they sound "big" and go a little faster. Having owned a few and done all of that except removing the cat converter I know why it's done but realized it's not worth what I'm doing to others when I set off car alarms just driving down the street. If there were inspections this would stop. As I'm sure you know we don't do so well when it comes to ozone either.
Just so y'all know I'm no environmentalist, far from it really. It's just lately it's chapped my hide more and more to see washers,fridges,dryers,trash etc just thrown in the woods, driving through town behind cars and having my wife choke on the clouds coming from the junker in front of us and being deafened by some truck next to us when he goose's it off the light just to hear his own motor. Or going to our relatives house and as we go by the neighbors property see at least 50 junk cars in various stages of decay pushed into the woods leaking all sorts of fluids. But this is Montana! We have the RIGHT to do as we please!!!
I know we shouldn't have to babysit the population but dang, what else is there to do when people won't take responsebility for their own actions? Unfortunately the days of a showdown in the street at high noon are over and so are the days of people actually caring about others around them so I guess we have to find another way...

[bigtrees]

To each his own. We all seem to love regulations prevent our neighbor from doing something bad, but we all lothe regulations that limit what we want to do.

As far as cars, I'd agree that EVERY VEHICLE makes pollution worse (including mine). All of our cars pollute and contribute to the pollution problem, not just the old ones. My dad (age 71) rides his bike to the grocery store and Costco (before it moved) and his bike certainly does not contribute to the pollution problem. When I lived in Whitefish, I used to ride my bike to work before it moved, and it worked really well.

[sissys_soapbox]

People should drive safe cars. People should also hang up phones to drive . they should eat more veggies. They should earn more than they spend. they should enjoy their kids. they should turn off the tv and watch a sunset. People SHOULD do alot of things they dont. BUT we dont need someone to tell us we have to>

[Reziac]

Here in California, the smog test program likes to take credit for the much-reduced air pollution levels.

I think the actual cause is something different: ALL the heavy industry that used to be here is GONE. Driven out of the state by greedy unions and increasingly onerous gov't regulations, to the point that it was impossible to break even, let alone make a profit. So any manufactury that had a smokestack is long gone.

Just about any tolerably tuned-up car will pass the smog test -- my 30 year old pickup does so with flying colours, IF the smog station has clean equipment. Funny thing, most of 'em have dirty equipment, so you're really getting everyone's smog being blamed on each and every car. So some pass and some don't, without much logic to it. Mine tested at way over limit at one station and way UNDER limit at another (with noticeably cleaner equipment), and the difference wasn't a little bit, it was over 300%. My 29 year old car (presently non-op'd cuz I don't drive it anymore, but too nice to send to the crusher) passed even at the "dirty" smog test station, and that was right after it left Montana. (It was my mom's car.)

The test and cert cost $50 to $60 per year (older vehicles have to do it every year, newer ones every other year), plus you can be forced to make up to $500 in repairs to get your vehicle to pass, and worst case, they can force you to "retire" it. But beyond that, there's also a hidden cost: way more cars go to the crusher that really were NOT "gross polluters" but rather were victims of dirty test equipment. And way more people feel like they have to buy new cars that they can't really afford, leading to more debt at a time when that's the worst thing you can do for yourself and the economy.

And there are no longer any decent used cars available in this state that a teenager or a new young couple just starting out can really afford to buy -- bottom end on actually-driveable used cars is about $4000 (maybe a little less from some fly-by-night), but realistically most dealers won't carry anything priced under $12,000. So the only way to get even a used vehicle is to go into more debt than a young person can truly handle.

So... yeah, nearly all the cars on the road in California are less than 5 years old, and smog ain't what it used to be, but the cost to consumers and to business has run into billions of dollars. That's billions that could have been doing something productive, like keeping people employed so they can *afford* to buy a newer, cleaner-running car.

As to particulate count, that has nothing to do with vehicle smog, and everything to do with dust, and sometimes woodstove smoke. Anywhere with wind and semi-arid conditions (frex, most dry rangeland), or wind and naked dirt (frex, fallow wheatfields), regularly gets an F rating for particulate count. As to other pollutants, Missoula has been on the 10-worst list numerous times, due to the inversion problem from being in a closed-in valley. Missoula has tried to prohibit woodstoves during inversions, but try telling someone they're not allowed to heat their house with wood they can cut themselves, when it's 10 below zero and propane costs as much as $3 PER MINUTE to heat with.

(Yes, I figured it out, that's what propane actually costs me, and I only have a little wall furnace and keep my house at 62F all winter.)