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I've been wondering what the realistic possibilities of going completely off-grid in Flathead County, Montana are.
As far as using off-grid solutions for water/sewage, heating/cooling, and power, there have been significant tech advancements in the past few years, but sometimes it really depends on local environmental factors to be effective. Rainfall, availability of water, extreme temperatures, hours of sunlight per day, soil, etc. can make or break off-grid plans.
So, in 2022, what are YOUR experiences with going off-grid where there is minimal utilities available?
Thanks in advance!
We're not off grid but we do have solar. We are adding more this year as well.
Depending on the power provider available in the area (if available), you may be able to do a net meter and use the grid as your 'back-up' battery bank.
When NorthWestern Energy customers install solar panels, small winds turbine and/or small scale hydro at their house, they can produce energy themselves to electrify their homes. These customers can request a “net meter” from NorthWestern Energy. Net metering allows any energy not used by the customer to be exported back to the electric grid, and this unused energy is available as a credit to the customer on future bills.
This unused energy is tracked and made available as a credit to the customer on future bills until their selected 12-month billing period ends. At the end of the 12-month billing period Montana law mandates that the energy credit resets to zero.
For us a goal would be to generate enough electricity when the sun is shining and bank the credit to use for electricity in the colder months. We are an all electric house with the exception of a propane kitchen range and fireplace. We also have a pellet stove, however technically our main heat is electric baseboard.
It's a viable arrangement given the current realities of independent generation. Solar is getting cheaper by the year and output accelerating. Storage is the crappy part. Battery technology is still in the nascent stage so I'm not willing to invest in that right now. I'll use the power provider and pay the nominal fee to remain 'tied' until such time it's economically feasible to switch to something else. It's a lot cheaper than buying batteries for sure.
As far as water? You can do a cistern and a solar pump or hand-pump. Gravity would be your friend. We're looking at doing something like that just for our garden, but unless I could source the components for free it would only be a 'feel good' project since we have a source for water anyway.
In the geographic area you are describing, passive solar heating might not work very well. It works for us to an extent, but we are much sunnier in Helena. We get some natural passive heating in the winter, but we do not have any interior materials that provide much of a heat sink. I think if I were to live in NW Montana and try to be 'as conservative' with energy (heat) I would build a button up home designed to retain heat as much as possible.
Or the opposite and have as many windows as I like and burn a crap ton of wood
When it comes to sustainable, off-grid living, redundancy is surely the key. Having at least 2-3 options should keep anyone from falling into a desperate situation.
Some really good points brought up were scalability and lowering energy usage. I was originally looking to build a huge house, but realize at this point we'd only need a small (hopefully DIY) cabin. Not only is lack of labor and cost of materials weighing heavily there, but keeping SQFT to a minimum not only lowers those costs, it also makes off-grid much easier to build and maintain.
Solar
· Summertime, of course, should be fine, but I've wondered about winter. Cloudy, shorter days and snow were obviously my main concern there. I was hoping that it would still work to some degree with a generator to top off when needed.
· Would one of those newer "solar generators" completely replace the need to buy batteries, inverter, and the other separate components?
Propane
· Heater-direct vent
· Hot water heater, especially for shower, on-demand
· Appliances?
· Current cost to refuel?
Wood Stove
· Cost and availability of firewood if you don't want to cut down whatever trees you have on your property--at least well into the future.
· Concern over fire dying during the night and waking up to a house/cabin that's freezing.
Water
· I'm really liking the option of the self-drilled, shallow hand pump well. What I need to know is how viable that is in the Flathead area. How deep is the typical water table? Does that work if your property is up in the hills or is it mostly used in valleys with water sources close by (creeks, lakes, springs, etc.)
· I'd like to install a rain catchment and storage system, but how viable would that option be in Flathead County, at least when it's not freezing outside?
Sewage
· Composting toilet-How painful to maintain and nasty to deal with?
· How to run grey water to drain safely on property?
. Is some type of DIY septic tank/drain field doable? What are the regulations in Flathead County?
That's quite a bit, but if any of you have experience with these, please comment on them.
I was quoted about 25k to install a propane backup generator for our house. Primary circuits are for the well pump, water heater, and the HVAC (all electric). The cost would be cut in half if we converted the heater and HVAC to propane ... of course the cost to do that wouldn't be cheap. And at best, with a 1000gal tank, we'd have power for about a week, maybe more if we're willing to be more uncomfortable. A Tesla PowerWall setup would be in excess of 70k.
Needless to say, this ain't the house to go 'off grid' with. To do it right I think most would agree that working it all into a new build makes more sense. Acre lots are going for 250K or more around here right now, so budget accordingly.
Regarding our wood stove, we installed a Lopi a few years ago and it's cut our Winter heating bill more than in half. The secret is burning it hot to avoid creosote buildup, and stuff the firebox to get a hot burn going before bed, then close the damper. It burns all night and keeps the main room anywhere from 60-65. Cooler if there's single digit temps and winds howling.
I believe the County would require an engineered septic on a developed lot, but I'm not sure. I'm told the compost from a composting toilet isn't environmentally clean ... you still have to bury it.
When it comes to sustainable, off-grid living, redundancy is surely the key. Having at least 2-3 options should keep anyone from falling into a desperate situation.
Some really good points brought up were scalability and lowering energy usage. I was originally looking to build a huge house, but realize at this point we'd only need a small (hopefully DIY) cabin. Not only is lack of labor and cost of materials weighing heavily there, but keeping SQFT to a minimum not only lowers those costs, it also makes off-grid much easier to build and maintain.
Solar
· Summertime, of course, should be fine, but I've wondered about winter. Cloudy, shorter days and snow were obviously my main concern there. I was hoping that it would still work to some degree with a generator to top off when needed.
· Would one of those newer "solar generators" completely replace the need to buy batteries, inverter, and the other separate components?
Propane
· Heater-direct vent
· Hot water heater, especially for shower, on-demand
· Appliances?
· Current cost to refuel?
Wood Stove
· Cost and availability of firewood if you don't want to cut down whatever trees you have on your property--at least well into the future.
· Concern over fire dying during the night and waking up to a house/cabin that's freezing.
Water
· I'm really liking the option of the self-drilled, shallow hand pump well. What I need to know is how viable that is in the Flathead area. How deep is the typical water table? Does that work if your property is up in the hills or is it mostly used in valleys with water sources close by (creeks, lakes, springs, etc.)
· I'd like to install a rain catchment and storage system, but how viable would that option be in Flathead County, at least when it's not freezing outside?
Sewage
· Composting toilet-How painful to maintain and nasty to deal with?
· How to run grey water to drain safely on property?
. Is some type of DIY septic tank/drain field doable? What are the regulations in Flathead County?
That's quite a bit, but if any of you have experience with these, please comment on them.
Propane- you can look at https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/reports.php#/T1288 and find all the regional analysis and reports on propane costs. Propane is a volatile commodity and subject to massive fluctuations in price.
Water tables- there is no generalized answer for the water table question you have. It all depends on where you are. It can vary within a small geographic area. For example my neighbor up the north hills and to east of me drilled a well and got over 30gpm at 230 feet. My neighbor and I tried drilling wells- literally 5,000 feet or less from the one up the hill. He went 500 ft and hit NO water, I went 250 feet and stopped. Personally I wouldn't bank on a hand drilled well unless you plan on buying in a known area with a high water table. And then- you may want to think about the potential downside to that.
Rain cisterns- you can easily find the average precipitation data for an area. Armed with that knowledge you can chart out how much storage you would need based on your consumption inputs. You would need underground storage (ideally) to draw water in the freezing months. Only you can answer this one.
Sewage- Why would you want a composting toilet to begin with? Why not a septic system?
Wood heat- if you want to live off grid in NW Montana wood heat is about the cheapest and most viable option. No question about it.
Sewage
· Composting toilet-How painful to maintain and nasty to deal with?
· How to run grey water to drain safely on property?
. Is some type of DIY septic tank/drain field doable? What are the regulations in Flathead County?
That's quite a bit, but if any of you have experience with these, please comment on them.
The composting toilet: My family's lake cabin back East has had a composting toilet since 2003. It's been used by 3-4 people over approx. 6 weeks of summer over the years, and it has only had to be emptied twice every summer. Let me try to describe this without being too graphic: The nasties are really not too nasty, because it all turns to soil. BUT...the TP doesn't! Even with TP designed for that kind of toilet. The water level needs to be monitored, and the temperature maintained. It can be done, but IMO it only works for a seasonal cabin. Too difficult in the long run.
But the worst thing: the toilet itself doesn't have an odor problem--but the exhaust pipe does! So if the wind blows toward your patio, then say goodbye to lunches and dinners outside...
The septic tank: I can only tell you about what we have experienced in Bonner CT, but there you can't get a building permit without the county determining where the drain field is going to go, and evaluating the type of soil. Then you are given a list of licensed installers in the area, but whether you can claim to be your own builder/installer may depend on the county. It is quite an expense, and I don't really see a way to avoid it. For a single family dwelling tank we paid over $7000 for the installation two years ago. You do want the job to be done right...
Propane- you can look at https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/reports.php#/T1288 and find all the regional analysis and reports on propane costs. Propane is a volatile commodity and subject to massive fluctuations in price.
Water tables- there is no generalized answer for the water table question you have. It all depends on where you are. It can vary within a small geographic area. For example my neighbor up the north hills and to east of me drilled a well and got over 30gpm at 230 feet. My neighbor and I tried drilling wells- literally 5,000 feet or less from the one up the hill. He went 500 ft and hit NO water, I went 250 feet and stopped. Personally I wouldn't bank on a hand drilled well unless you plan on buying in a known area with a high water table. And then- you may want to think about the potential downside to that.
Rain cisterns- you can easily find the average precipitation data for an area. Armed with that knowledge you can chart out how much storage you would need based on your consumption inputs. You would need underground storage (ideally) to draw water in the freezing months. Only you can answer this one.
Sewage- Why would you want a composting toilet to begin with? Why not a septic system? Wood heat- if you want to live off grid in NW Montana wood heat is about the cheapest and most viable option. No question about it.
Thank you for the response. I've looked up the data & stats before, but was looking for feedback from anyone who's done it or tried it. As for the composting toilet, since I haven't lived off-grid yet, I'm researching all the options. Most DIY off-grids I've seen seem to either use a composting toilet or an outhouse.
We started our off grid journey recently. We built a mud room with bath room to live in while building the rest of the house hopefully this year. Tonight will be the first night staying in the mud room. We built our first fire in the Morso wood stove last night after completing the flue. I believe we bought the last non-catalytic wood stove in the west. We hope to turn on the water for the first time today. I'm sure we'll find out but I'm of the opinion that our solar needs will be considerably less than what research has told me. I'm not going to put in what our on grid home uses as we hope to be doing alot of playing outdoors. Gen use should be minimal now that we no longer need it for the camper during 0f nights.
We put in a cistern and pump that needs no outside controls. We are also doing everything ourselves which we've done many times before except those were on grid. No way would we be doing this if we had to depend on others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Problems I would suggest looking into. We built on piers as getting a concrete truck into our property would be way too difficult without cutting trees down and building a passable road in which is way too costly as it is mountain rock! Getting materials into our site isn't easy at all. Driving a billion miles back and forth while trying to build. Water we haul in ourselves from the nearest town 25 miles away and wasn't bad to get in. After 27+ yrs on the prairie living in horrendous winds, we are extremely blessed to have that over. That being said snow is not to be overlooked! I had a brain fart thinking the two locals would continue plowing the road with myself also doing my part. LOL. I've plowed it 5 times now and they haven't lifted a finger to do their part. Guess I'm now the snow plow sugar daddy???? That wouldn't be such a big deal if we weren't also trying to build and move in! We get significant snow up there! Excavating in mountain rock requires a very large ex to get through the rock for the septic and cistern. The locals said they had to blast and that i would also. I was blessed enough to find a seam that I barely broke through for the septic and cistern100' away from the cabin. But again I have a considerable amount of experience with majority of building, equipment operation, maintenance of most types so it is a bit easier for me. A sizable 4x4 tractor will be a must! Also a must for us living in Wyoming is a log home period!! We've built several types and a log home in this climate is the only way imo! We've only found one company that will insure our cabin at this point and that is expensive and sketchy at this point. I've had to do some interesting engineering/experiments that I'm hoping will work, lol. There's no help or info I was able to find for some of the problems we encountered so we'll see how things workout for those specific problems.
We started our off grid journey recently. We built a mud room with bath room to live in while building the rest of the house hopefully this year. Tonight will be the first night staying in the mud room. We built our first fire in the Morso wood stove last night after completing the flue. I believe we bought the last non-catalytic wood stove in the west. We hope to turn on the water for the first time today. I'm sure we'll find out but I'm of the opinion that our solar needs will be considerably less than what research has told me. I'm not going to put in what our on grid home uses as we hope to be doing alot of playing outdoors. Gen use should be minimal now that we no longer need it for the camper during 0f nights.
We put in a cistern and pump that needs no outside controls. We are also doing everything ourselves which we've done many times before except those were on grid. No way would we be doing this if we had to depend on others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Problems I would suggest looking into. We built on piers as getting a concrete truck into our property would be way too difficult without cutting trees down and building a passable road in which is way too costly as it is mountain rock! Getting materials into our site isn't easy at all. Driving a billion miles back and forth while trying to build. Water we haul in ourselves from the nearest town 25 miles away and wasn't bad to get in. After 27+ yrs on the prairie living in horrendous winds, we are extremely blessed to have that over. That being said snow is not to be overlooked! I had a brain fart thinking the two locals would continue plowing the road with myself also doing my part. LOL. I've plowed it 5 times now and they haven't lifted a finger to do their part. Guess I'm now the snow plow sugar daddy???? That wouldn't be such a big deal if we weren't also trying to build and move in! We get significant snow up there! Excavating in mountain rock requires a very large ex to get through the rock for the septic and cistern. The locals said they had to blast and that i would also. I was blessed enough to find a seam that I barely broke through for the septic and cistern100' away from the cabin. But again I have a considerable amount of experience with majority of building, equipment operation, maintenance of most types so it is a bit easier for me. A sizable 4x4 tractor will be a must! Also a must for us living in Wyoming is a log home period!! We've built several types and a log home in this climate is the only way imo! We've only found one company that will insure our cabin at this point and that is expensive and sketchy at this point. I've had to do some interesting engineering/experiments that I'm hoping will work, lol. There's no help or info I was able to find for some of the problems we encountered so we'll see how things workout for those specific problems.
Good luck on your journey!
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