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Old 07-02-2008, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,538 posts, read 12,549,407 times
Reputation: 2952

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian View Post
Too much 'racial awareness' on the mind for my taste. people who lead with their race will probably eventually find or create the problems they dwell on.
This is exactly true. If you're Busy Being Black (or Indian, or whatever), rather than just be a person who happens to be black, it SHOWS. It's passive-aggressive behaviour -- a form of chip-on-the-shoulder, and no one likes that (except other people with chips on their shoulders).

Larry Elder (who happens to be black) has written reams about this issue -- and he makes sense. Like he says, just be a regular person, stop calling attention to your differences, stop labeling yourself, and you'll find an amazing level of acceptance. But continually make sure no one ever forgets you're "different" and you're guaranteed to remain an outsider.

BTW, I take issue with the term "African American". American blacks are no more African than I am; if anything, most blacks are MORE American than most whites, because their ancestors have been here a couple hundred years longer. Hey, I'm probably 5 generations closer to immigrant ancestors than the average black American -- so shouldn't I make them call me a "Norwegian/Irish/Welsh/Scotch American"?? Hmm, that's a mouthful. How about "Celtic-Norse American" instead. -- Sounds pretty silly from the other side, doesn't it!!

A prime example of how stupid politically-correct racial labeling is happened when one of the national news anchors (and I saw him say it) referred to a black native resident of Africa as an "African American", to avoid the politically-incorrect term "black". Er, yeah, if you say so!!

And finally, a quote that sums up what I'm talking about:
Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. ... More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct our sins, we should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.

-- Senator Ron Paul
(read the whole article here: Government and Racism by Ron Paul )

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Old 07-02-2008, 02:37 PM
 
56,088 posts, read 80,174,891 times
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Default The irony I see.....

is that when you are a part of the larger group, you tend to not have to deal with issues in those terms the way other groups that are smaller might have to. So, for the larger society, the burden or the stigma of the group isn't the same as it is for those of color here in this country. I think most people do go about things in an individualistic way, but the reality of this society is that we tend to generalize and group people into a stereotypical way, race included. So, the question is legitimate considering things like the demographics of Montana, racial history(and present) in this country, living patterns(generally speaking) and so on.

Another irony is the fact someone used a quote by Ron Paul to talk about racism, when isn't this the same guy that had welcomed support from individuals invovled in a "hate group"?

Lastly, I will paraphrase a statement by writer James Baldwin, "I will stop considering myself to be black, when you stop considering yourself to be White". Just something to think about considering where and who formed that concept called "race".
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,538 posts, read 12,549,407 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
is that when you are a part of the larger group, you tend to not have to deal with issues in those terms the way other groups that are smaller might have to. So, for the larger society, the burden or the stigma of the group isn't the same as it is for those of color here in this country.
Heh, well, here in California, us "whites" are now a minority, at only about 40% of the total population.

But the point was -- so long as you consider yourself first and foremost part of some other "group", then others will see you that way too. Many of your "smaller groups" have gotten in the habit of demanding special treatment, and some don't like the notion that if they weren't part of some "downtrodden" group, they wouldn't get special treatment anymore.

But if they'd stop demanding to be seen as a special group, they'd have fewer of these issues to deal with, ALL of which ultimately trace back to having historically been seen as a *different* group. If you want to put that historical artifact into the past for good, you've got to stop flouting your membership in that "different" group.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,227 posts, read 7,228,398 times
Reputation: 6653
I think a lot of people confuse race and culture.
Let me explain. In my travels as an over the road trucker (20+ years) and working in our local State penitentiary (10 years) I have had contact with a wide variety of races and cultures. Race is usually just a matter of skin color and facial characteristics. Culture is a totally different matter. I always try to not let Race prejudice my judgment of anyone. However I do have prejudices about certain types of behavior that are associated with certain "cultures".

Have I made myself clear?

Comments appreciated.

GL2
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,807,558 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
I think a lot of people confuse race and culture.
Let me explain. In my travels as an over the road trucker (20+ years) and working in our local State penitentiary (10 years) I have had contact with a wide variety of races and cultures. Race is usually just a matter of skin color and facial characteristics. Culture is a totally different matter. I always try to not let Race prejudice my judgment of anyone. However I do have prejudices about certain types of behavior that are associated with certain "cultures".

Have I made myself clear?

Comments appreciated.

GL2
Well said.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Road Warrior
2,015 posts, read 4,991,521 times
Reputation: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
I think a lot of people confuse race and culture.
Let me explain. In my travels as an over the road trucker (20+ years) and working in our local State penitentiary (10 years) I have had contact with a wide variety of races and cultures. Race is usually just a matter of skin color and facial characteristics. Culture is a totally different matter. I always try to not let Race prejudice my judgment of anyone. However I do have prejudices about certain types of behavior that are associated with certain "cultures".

Have I made myself clear?

Comments appreciated.

GL2
Well said gunlover, it's hard to understand without traveling the States, you do get a different "vibe" in different regions of the country and sometime we forget the fact that even in our country there are regional differences and cultures. Though perhaps not as distinct as Black and White, we are not simply a country based on materialistic ideology, perhaps in California or New York, they live up most to this expectation but many states still have been able to maintain their uniqueness such as Montana. I believe this distinctness needs to be acknowledged and respected, since when was the phrased termed "when in rome do as the romans do". Same applies to Montana or California or whatever.
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:23 AM
 
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read 238,793 times
Reputation: 95
Once upon a time when dinosaurs ruled the Earth and I was in college racism was defined as a belief that behavior was in the blood. And sadly and truly many people belived that "blood" wins out in regard to predicting behavior.

Now, many people believe that until the KKK has afternoon tea with Al Sharpton racism runs amuck in America. It is a childish view and does damage to common sense and decency. Overly sensitized people spending their lives looking for offenses against them. In my old age I have come to realize the singular advantage of being a white male; when things aren't working, it's probably something in my behavior that needs adjusting and I don't need to wait til Jesse Jackson or Michelle Obama declare America is a good place to get myself back to reality.
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,538 posts, read 12,549,407 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian View Post
Once upon a time when dinosaurs ruled the Earth and I was in college racism was defined as a belief that behavior was in the blood. And sadly and truly many people believed that "blood" wins out in regard to predicting behavior.
Behaviour patterns are very much inherited (if you see enough generations of related people, especially who did NOT grow up together, this, which any performance animal breeder knows, becomes obvious about humans as well). But that means stuff like waving your hands a certain way when agitated, or scratching your nose a certain way, or having a preference for yellow and beef over purple and pork, or having a short temper, or a sweet nature, or the standing joke in my family that some of us inherited saying "warsh" instead of "wash" and that none of us can run in a straight line to save our lives. (No pro sports candidates in my family!)

But it doesn't predict everything about you nor control your destiny. Rather, it predicts what you can become given the paths that are open to you. It's up to you to choose your best available path, and not your worst possible path. That's why there's often such a fine line between cop and criminal, or fireman and arsonist. Similar heritage, but taken down different paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian View Post
Now, many people believe that until the KKK has afternoon tea with Al Sharpton racism runs amuck in America. It is a childish view and does damage to common sense and decency. Overly sensitized people spending their lives looking for offenses against them. In my old age I have come to realize the singular advantage of being a white male; when things aren't working, it's probably something in my behavior that needs adjusting and I don't need to wait til Jesse Jackson or Michelle Obama declare America is a good place to get myself back to reality.
from a Larry Elder article in Jewish World Review

In 1911, former slave Booker T. Washington prophetically wrote about "black leaders" like Cleaver, Jackson and Sharpton: "There is (a) class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public."
.
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:36 PM
 
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read 238,793 times
Reputation: 95
I think you have moved the discussion to a deeper level. In fact regarding the nature-nurture argument, a few years ago there was a very controversial book I believe called "Parents Don't Matter" that argued that parenting, the acts of socializing children the way the parent desires is less effective than ever imagined, and that in fact the biological parent (think adoption) is a far more powerful predicator the the success or lack of same. However, if that argument lead to discrimination against groups (e.g., keep the Irish out of bars) it would be rightly rejected by the left and right in our society.

The really interesting thing you and I and Mr. Elder would all agree upon is that the left practices the same sort of racism found in most fascist and totalitarian countries all the while claiming to be on the side of the non-racist angels.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
7 posts, read 24,017 times
Reputation: 19
I've been away from Montana for 10 long years, but it would seem not much has changed. I lived in Missoula from 1986-1999. One of the first controversies I encountered was a story in the Missoulian regarding a black woman and her children. They had encountered so much racism that they decided to leave the state. A black police officer married to a white woman was told to "get your hands off that white women" while dancing with his wife in a bar. I took my visiting parents to a U of M homecoming parade and my father remarked "There is a conspicous lack of black faces in this crowd."

I think Montana is large enough for anyone, regardless of color to move to without fear of encountering old school predjudice.
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