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Another irony is the fact someone used a quote by Ron Paul to talk about racism, when isn't this the same guy that had welcomed support from individuals invovled in a "hate group"?
Never heard of this and tried finding info about it. Nothing comes up. So, could you give me a reference? I would appreciate it.
Thanks
This is exactly true. If you're Busy Being Black (or Indian, or whatever), rather than just be a person who happens to be black, it SHOWS. It's passive-aggressive behaviour -- a form of chip-on-the-shoulder, and no one likes that (except other people with chips on their shoulders).
BTW, I take issue with the term "African American". American blacks are no more African than I am; if anything, most blacks are MORE American than most whites, because their ancestors have been here a couple hundred years longer. Hey, I'm probably 5 generations closer to immigrant ancestors than the average black American -- so shouldn't I make them call me a "Norwegian/Irish/Welsh/Scotch American"?? Hmm, that's a mouthful. How about "Celtic-Norse American" instead. -- Sounds pretty silly from the other side, doesn't it!!
Reziac,
I agree with you totally! It would sound silly to say I am a French/German/Lithuanian/whatever American. Excuse me....if you are born in the USA, you are American. If you immigrate to this country LEGALLY and become a US citizen, then you are American (most that go thru the steps to become citizens, proudly relate to being American!).
So, back in the 1700's, my dad's side of the family came to the US (before it was), by way of Canada from France. Why did they leave.....religious persecution. Do I go back to France and demand my "rightful" place? No! because where did those ancestors of mine come from before they were in France? I don't know and don't care. If you could trace your roots, you'd find that people moved to get away from where they were born/raised due to wars, famine, persecution, etc and we all go back to an original spot where humanity started.
What brought that home to me even more acutely was 9/11 happening. I came across a report somewhere that broke down the countries that lost people in the Twin Towers. What I heard in the regular news broke the deaths down to Whites, African Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanics, etc. There were people from England, India, different parts of Africa, Japan....people from all over the world. The news made a big thing over the American races, when, I feel, they should have focused on the human life that was lost. It was a sad event any way you look at it.
So, I get back in my own way whenever I'm polled for whatever reason. If I'm asked what I am....I tell the person don't break me down to "White/non-Hispanic, Asian American, etc....I am an American plain and simple. Unfortunately, they are simple minded and don't get it, but I do try to explain it to them
Never heard of this and tried finding info about it. Nothing comes up. So, could you give me a reference? I would appreciate it.
Thanks
It comes from this story, which I don't know the original source for:
Paul keeps donation from white supremacist
Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul has received a $500 campaign donation from a white supremacist, and the Texas congressman doesn't plan to return it, an aide said Wednesday.
Don Black, of West Palm Beach, recently made the donation, according to campaign filings. He runs a Web site called Stormfront with the motto, "White Pride World Wide." The site welcomes postings to the "Stormfront White Nationalist Community."
"Dr. Paul stands for freedom, peace, prosperity and inalienable rights. If someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to Ron, thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's wasted his money," Paul spokesman Jesse Benton said. "Ron is going to take the money and try to spread the message of freedom."
"And that's $500 less that this guy has to do whatever it is that he does," Benton added.
Also, there were a number of allegations of racism because of Paul's pull-no-punches writings (notably his observation about the very high percentage of young black male criminals in Washington D.C.) but personally I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade; it is not a silver spoon no matter how much you sugar-coat it. He points out existing causes of racism and race issues, which is not the same as endorsing racist views, tho some people (generally those with an axe to grind on one side or the other of some racial issue) would certainly like to make it out to be that.
A post in The Medium blog that appeared on Monday about the Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul and his purported adoption by white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups contained several errors. Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist” Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul. Moderator cut: Copywrite, URL and a couple sentences is enough.
At any rate... no, he's not perfect, and occasionally I'd like to whap him upside the head, but he's philosophically the nearest to our Founding Fathers that I've seen in recent years.
Last edited by ElkHunter; 07-10-2008 at 05:07 PM..
Heh, well, here in California, us "whites" are now a minority, at only about 40% of the total population.
But the point was -- so long as you consider yourself first and foremost part of some other "group", then others will see you that way too. Many of your "smaller groups" have gotten in the habit of demanding special treatment, and some don't like the notion that if they weren't part of some "downtrodden" group, they wouldn't get special treatment anymore.
But if they'd stop demanding to be seen as a special group, they'd have fewer of these issues to deal with, ALL of which ultimately trace back to having historically been seen as a *different* group. If you want to put that historical artifact into the past for good, you've got to stop flouting your membership in that "different" group.
I will say this, it is irrelevant if you identify that way or not. People still need to be treat fairly. There isn't anything wrong with identification, unless it is used at the expence of something.
While there might be some "special treatment" that some might ask for, let's not get amnesia. "Special treatment" has been something that is well documented in this country and society and much, if not most of it came at the expense of the "smaller groups". That's just the truth.
it's funny how people want to get on "special treatment" of "smaller groups", but never think about the "special treatment" that occurs for those of the larger society. That still exists, eventhough it might be done in a private way. In fact it actually occurs in public ways too, but people won't do the research to know.
Also, there isn't anything wrong with speaking out on realistic issues, race or otherwise. How dare someone exercise that right to speak out on not being treated fairly. Again, isn't that the reason why many people from various places came here, for a better life?
Back to Montana, I beliebe Great Falls has the biggest community due to the Air Base there. I think the Glasgow area did at one time due to a Air Base there that closed in the late 60's-early 70's. Some in Billings and Missoula too. Besides that, maybe Bozeman due to Montana St. being there and that's all I know.
I will say this, it is irrelevant if you identify that way or not. People still need to be treat fairly. There isn't anything wrong with identification, unless it is used at the expence of something.
While there might be some "special treatment" that some might ask for, let's not get amnesia. "Special treatment" has been something that is well documented in this country and society and much, if not most of it came at the expense of the "smaller groups". That's just the truth.
But now it's the other way around. In California it's gotten to the point that it's real tough to get a scholarship unless you're an Asian female, which for whatever reason is currently seen as the "most downtrodden" demographic. And it's almost impossible to get political fairness unless you're Hispanic, which is the big demographic that CA politicians are presently afraid of offending (and therefore suck up to in every way). Even blacks are complaining about that!!
Three things that bug me:
1) Insisting that the current generation has to pay for the sins of our ancestors, as done to someone else's ancestors. Being forced to pay reparations for historical wrongs is just welfare, or maybe extortion. And how far back do you go before it's patently ridiculous?? A hundred years? two hundred? four hundred? a thousand years? Hey, the Vikings raped and pillaged and burned** my Celtic ancestors, so Norway should pay me reparations, right? And those Celts sure were mean and inhospitable to my Viking ancestors, so those modern-day Brits had better pay up too... crap, I could wind up suing myself !!
2) Identifying as Whatever is fine. But don't walk around yelling (figuratively or literally) "I'M WHATEVER, AND YOU BETTER NEVER FORGET IT!" or shove my face in the fact that you're Whatever, which otherwise I probably wouldn't have paid any attention to, any more than I would to brown hair or blue eyes. But now that you've rubbed my nose in it, Whatever doesn't smell so good anymore, ya know?
3) Cultural "sensitivity". This is America. I don't mind if you bring your culture and language here and practice it in your own home, or teach it to others who express an interest, or share it with those who want to share it. Hey, I may even enjoy it. But don't expect America to change its majority culture and language to accomodate yours. If you want to live surrounded by the Old Country's culture and language, stay in the Old Country.
This is America, not just California. That's not one in the same. By the way, since you took it there, the group that benefits the most from things like you first described are White females. Keep in mind that they are consisdered a "minority" too and considering there are close to as many White women in this country as there are "minorities", it's ironic how people just equate such things to just people of color, when that's not completely the case.
Second, where did reparations come in? Do you know that the US has actually paid reparations before? If you haven't seen that before, check this out: New Page 0 I'm not advocating it or anything, but that is just something to keep in mind, since you brought that up.
Third, let's not pretend that racism doesn't exist. While it does goes various ways, there are different forms of it. it's not the same as it was before and that game has changed due to changes that people fought for. It's not going to be like it was before when it was more overt.
Fourth, no one said anything about changing America. What's tough though is that America has always been a country of constant transition. So, it tough to stop something that has always gone on and that such people have benefitted from indirectly.
What's also interesting is that while I see what you mean by not forcing one's culture on another, that is also ironic when you talk about a group like Blacks/African Americans. Think about the last names of many of the Black people you see and know. What about the place of origin those surnames come from? What about the language they speak in, initially by force? So, keep that in mind too.
Let's also keep in mind that the concept of race is really a recent phenomenon in the world and came from Western Europe. An example of this is the video I posted earlier. Even when looking at other groups in how they describe themselves, it usually translate into meaning "people or mankind". Two examples of this are the Inuit and Bantu. Both mean exactly that. So, that's something else to keep in mind.
Back to Montana, I would think the best bet for the orginial poster is to look at Great Falls which not only has the largest Black community in the state, but also have good sized Native and "Hispanic"(mainly Mexican) communities. It is one of the states biggest cities as well. So, in comparison, that would be a place where there are quite a few things going on.
Second, where did reparations come in? Do you know that the US has actually paid reparations before? If you haven't seen that before, check this out: New Page 0 I'm not advocating it or anything, but that is just something to keep in mind, since you brought that up.
Yes, I know. What this chart tells me is that we're getting more and more guilt-tripped over the deeds of our distant ancestors... and sometimes they weren't even OUR ancestors. Most of mine didn't come here til the late 1800s; even if "sins of the fathers" was a legit concept, how is it I still get to share blame for something that happened before my "fathers" ever got here?? In fact, this is the case for most Americans of European descent -- the big influx came after the Civil War. The slaves were already freed and the natives were already screwed, but what did those who came after have to do with it? (And don't tell me "they helped oppress the peoples of colour". That doesn't wash, unless you're looking for a scapegoat.)
My ancestors got starved off their farm during the Depression, and lost everything. According to the logic of reparations to descendants, Wall Street owes me a living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
What's also interesting is that while I see what you mean by not forcing one's culture on another, that is also ironic when you talk about a group like Blacks/African Americans. Think about the last names of many of the Black people you see and know. What about the place of origin those surnames come from? What about the language they speak in, initially by force? So, keep that in mind too.
It wasn't right then (even tho historically it has always been common practice worldwide), but by your logic, since it happened to them, it's okay if it happens to us in the present too.
On the other hand, how many of today's American blacks really wish their ancestors had never been sold (usually by neighbouring tribes after losing wars) to Europeans and brought to America? Do they really want to live in Africa, where the next tribe over still considers its neighbours fair game for extermination??
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Let's also keep in mind that the concept of race is really a recent phenomenon in the world and came from Western Europe.
Er, not really. The concept of race goes back as far as tribalism itself (even chimpanzees have the concept; it's not unique to humans) and as far as the written word exists. Ancient Greek writings talk about other tribes that way. Ancient Egyptian records mention the "Nubian race" as a *different* people. And so on. The idea of "that tribe is not us and is different" is as old as the thinking brain. And so long as people insist on thinking in terms of being part of the "black community" or the "hispanic community" or whatever racially-defined "community", the concept of race as a *separator between people* gets reinforced. It's just tribalism in modern trappings.
Anyway, I think we're coming from such different positions that never the twain shall meet. I don't believe that anyone should get special treatment (positive or negative) based on their ancestors, nor on what treatment their ancestors got. You get your own life and no other, and your ancestors don't make you due a piece of my life. And I don't care if you're black, white, green, or plaid. Ancestry (and its associated skin colour) should be a description, not a distinction.
My only problem is people using race/ethnicity as a scapegoat for far deeper personal problems. We all have the ability to do the same things, and yes racism does exist but don't use that as a crutch to lean on. Also, descrimination exist but it is not only race for which people are descriminated. Weight, sex, religion, and disabilities are all grounds for which descrimination occurs on. I just get pissed when people bring up the racism discussion. Can't we all live together, not use it against each other, not use is as a scapegoat, and forget the whole deal all together. Maybe I am an optimist but that is how I want to see it.
Most my life I spent in Missoula, I have never understood racism, like many of the people who have posted in here. Guess that’s a testament to the character of Montana’s people, they really don’t care what color you are. If I were black and HAD A GOOD CHARACTER I would have no worries about moving to Montana. I believe martin Luther king’s dream has mostly came true most people I know will judge you on your actions, and your character, not by the color of your skin.
Now that I have moved to San Antonio TX, I have gotten an education on racist people. Oddly enough it’s not from the white people. I have been discriminated against so much here because I am white that it’s almost laughable. Many of the minority people that I know are so consumed with the belief that they are being screwed by white people, that they can see nothing else.
It reminds me of going deer hunting in the woods. If you have ever been, you know that everything looks like a deer! A branch looks like horns, a bush looks like the body of a mule deer. It drives you nuts! Any thing in these peoples life that happens they deem to be bad, they automatically blame it on racist people doing it to them. When in reality it is their lack of character, honor, work ethic, and integrity that got them where they are.
Racism does exist, just look for names elating to race; League of united Latin American citizens, The National Black MBA Association, united Negro college fund, heck there are thousands of these organizations. Yet, not a single national white organization that isn’t deemed bad. ANY ORGANIZATION THAT IS BASED ON RACE IS BY DEFINITION, A RACIEST ORGANIZATION. They should all go away. Just once id like the see the country’s biggest racist, the rev Jessie Jackson, go to the aid of some white guy, or Asian person. HA wont happen.
back to the topic.....dont worry about being black and moving to montana, you are welcome here as long as you act "normal".
The ol' memory ain't what it used to be but if I recall the first permanent female (non native) resident of Montana was Black.
Now I can hear a mess of folks googling away to check on that !
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Interesting
The ol' memory ain't what it used to be but if I recall the first permanent female (non native) resident of Montana was Black.
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