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Old 07-14-2008, 08:58 PM
 
29,073 posts, read 33,033,661 times
Reputation: 5745
mtdave, those groups were formed because of racism, not to be racist. See, this is what I'm talking about, because people only get a part of history in those terms. If you research why these groups were formed, you will understand it better. Actually, many groups like like the ones you bring up were formed by a mixed group of people. The NAACP is a great example.

Also, considering history and the demographics of this country, why would there be White based groups? Actually, I take that back, because there are "White based" groups. In my area here in upstate NY, there are Italian, Irish, Polish, Ukranian based organizations, among others. So, there actually are such based groups and organizations and they were formed due to their situation in relation to the larger society.

While anyone cane be racist and everyon is prejudiced, there is a difference in terms of instituions. Just think about who runs and owns most institutions in this country and who formed them.

By the way, the concept of race is different than tribalism, let's not get the two confused. It is a pretty recent concept, because there isn't even a word for "race" in most societies. Even in Greece, they don't have racial classifications today and Inuit and Bantu actually mean human or people when translating it.

I never said what was OK then for what happened to Black people, but to say that people don't want the culture of others to be forced on them is just flat out ironic, as forced assimilation is older than apple pie in this country. Maybe it is a thing of you reap what you sow, I don't know.

There is no need to feel guilty. I don't know why people feel like they need to feel that way, but hopefully they will work that out. Unless they are contributing to it, there is no need.

Also, let's keep in mind that big waves of immigration occurred in this country when a big barrier had been broken down. Slavery, like it was brought up, is a good example of how more Europeans came to the US. After the Civil Rights movement, many immigrants from Asia, Latin America and later Africa started to really come into the country. That is partially or greatly due to the efforts of those that dealt with hardships due to race/ethnicity, so others can have that opportunity. Just like it allows Blacks to do great things in Montana, which they already have even in the past. Here's information about Mary Fields, a Black cow woman that lived in Cascade, outside of Great Falls:Mary Fields: Female Pioneer in Montana » HistoryNet - From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher

Stagecoach Mary Fields

I believe Butte and Anaconda had their share of Blacks at one time as well. Here's more information from the great falls newspaper too:Uncovering black history in Montana | greatfallstribune.com | Great Falls Tribune

and more ifno...... Indianz.Com Message Board - Montana, nation's least-black state

Deep in the Heart of Montana, a Black Woman Finds Home - New York Times
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Old 07-14-2008, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
262 posts, read 446,946 times
Reputation: 229
ckhthankgod, I agree that at one time in this country that there was a need for groups to fight the racism against them. The mistake is making the group for one particular race. Why not come together in a group of all types and races of people and for a group called humans against racism, or something of the sort. To section off into a decisive groups is putting “us verses them” attitude into it. There is no longer a need for these types of groups, other than one large one as I said above.

Now the white groups you are talking about are not about race, they are national origins groups. True, these countries are mostly white, but they are not based on race. Blacks in the usa don’t call them self’s Namibia-Americans, or Gambia-Americans. They include the whole continent, how many euro-American groups do you see?

Another thing I have a problem with is the idea that the USA created racism and slavery. Both are as old as the hills. The USA should be given credit for officially ending slavery in less that 100 years of existence! It was among the first countries in the world to ban it.

I , for one, am for forced assimilation. To join and kind of group, a country, a football team, a book reading club and so on, you have to be like the others in the group in at least a few ways. For a country the largest uniting force is language, and traditions. If you come to the USA you should (not to mention should WANT TO) assimilate, that includes learning ENGLISH. As well as you, and we all, should be proud of our country, even with its is flaws and short comings. The greatness and good of this country and its deeds has far out weighed the bad.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:38 PM
 
1,305 posts, read 545,855 times
Reputation: 238
There was once a black family that lived in the Flathead Valley near a lake, so the people of the Flathead named the lake after the family that lived there. Problem is I can't post the name here because it's considered impolite by today's standards.

Lake has since been changed to Lost Coon Lake which I can post here....and very few people know the history.
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:28 PM
 
29,073 posts, read 33,033,661 times
Reputation: 5745
Interesting bigtrees.....That is another thing that people don't know about and is another example of where I'm coming from. Many lakes where Black people lived nearby were called N----r lake. There was one in Upstate NY too and there were many others until the 80's. There were roads like that too. This also occurred in parts of Canada as well. If you think about it, the word "coon", could even have a negative connotation to it.

mtdave, the difference between those European ethnic groups and Black groups is that the European groups know exactly where their ancestors came from, while the Blacks don't know exactly where their ancestors came from in Africa. That is why finding out ancestry is big now for Black Americans. When looking at all things, each of those groups were formed at least to some degree for cultural reasons.

Actually the NAACP was formed by Blacks and Whites that saw that need and considering that racism still exists, there still is some need for it. While the game of racism has changed in terms of how blatant it is, due to changes in legal terms, it still exists. There are also groups at least on local levels that focus on getting rid of racism, but we have to realize it exists. It's not just simplified to just lynchings, hate groups and segregation like many people think it is.

As for slavery, yes, it is a old institution, but I think what people were upset about is the contradiction of America in those terms. You can't say you are free this and free that for ALL, then have slavery for about 300 years(including pre formation of US of A). Then, you have another century of legalized segregation and racism during the Jim Crow era. I think that is what people are talking about, the contradiction that existed for so long. Then, what people do not know is that Kentucky didn't ratify the amendment to end slavery until 1976 and Mississippi until 1995. Being that my father is from the latter state, there were some areas there where you could almost say there was glorified slavery, which I witnessed in a visit there in 1992 in my father's hometown. it was also an institution in the North as well. For instance, my state of NY, had it until 1827. So, it was not just a Southern thing and in fact NJ had it until 1866, when it released it's last slave. That was after the Civil War and the 13th amendment.

Racism is a pretty new concept as there was no such word in the vocabulary for race in most languages until about 500 years ago as was first used in England. While there was discrimination, it usually was locally based. Meaning, it was in a sense rivalry like. So, much of that was usually between people that look similar to each other. For instance, people don't know that Jews and Arabs are actually related. Both are Semetic people, but religion seems to get in the way in a local region called the Middle East.

I do understand the language thing, as it would just make sense in terms of trying to move forward in that society. I think that people shouldn't lose their native language, if they can help it though, but they should learn the language of the land. I just hope that we can look at the diversity we have and make it our own. Meaning, for so long the culture that came from other groups was looked down upon and was appreciated when it was only convienient. We now have to come to terms with what it means to be American and that it comes from different parts of the world.

Just some stuff to show that I'm not trying to BS people on here:Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (check out proposal and ratification part of this)

RACE - The Power of an Illusion . Background Readings | PBS

RACE - The Power of an Illusion | PBS

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NAACP - About the NAACP (http://www.naacp.org/about/ - broken link)

This is something in my hometown to fight against racism:Duck Race to End Racism - Event Information
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Stillwater County, MT
19 posts, read 33,334 times
Reputation: 19
Going back to the topic of fitting into a place, I say that no matter where anyone goes, there is going to be some adjustment. And there are always going to be the folks who judge you by the way you look and throw a label on you. On some level, we are all guilty of it.

I think that's fair to say for just about anyone I have ever met. I'd say, if you want to live somewhere, and find a great place to call home, don't lose sleep over acceptance too much.

I only mention it because I have heard from quite a few people how much the people of Montana "hate" people from the West Coast because of the influx of Californians coming in and polluting the state, or bringing their liberal views with them.

If I let that bug me too much, I would be on edge about moving my family to a place where I assumed that we would be judged, and therefore would be unhappy. That's not fair to the residents of where we were moving, to not give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure there are folks who are going to see me and think I'm a weird hippie because I have my nose pierced and work as an artist. OK. What those people won't have the opportunity to realize is that I'm a wife and mother with two little kids, who cuts coupons and drives a Subaru wagon. I am about as "normal" as anyone else.

Racism, sexism, and any other -ism can be found in any state, any country... don't let the fear of that outweigh your desire to follow your heart somewhere. It gives hate too much power.

And that said, let's all hold hands, hug a tree, and sing "kumbaya". LOL. Just kidding, but what you might expect from the pierced hippie artist who just wants everyone to get along.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
6,298 posts, read 6,909,951 times
Reputation: 1922
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtrees View Post
There was once a black family that lived in the Flathead Valley near a lake, so the people of the Flathead named the lake after the family that lived there. Problem is I can't post the name here because it's considered impolite by today's standards.

Lake has since been changed to Lost Coon Lake which I can post here....and very few people know the history.
Of course back when the original name was applied, the now-infamous "impolite" word was no more impolite than "black" is today. It was just how "negro" was pronounced in an Elizabethan accent (which BTW is preserved in the present era as the Appalachian hillbilly accent).
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Old 07-16-2008, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
262 posts, read 446,946 times
Reputation: 229
You keep missing my point, or you just don’t want to admit its true. These groups are by definition a raciest. I understand why the were formed, and they were needed. I am saying that how they formed them, and the attitude of the organizations are wrong. And foster the very thing they say they are against.


To me the goal should be a world were none notices skin color or race. If they keep grouping themselves together, have different and separate culture ie “the black community) it just drives the wedge between us further. It the us vs them thing.

When I see a event, group, organization ect. That is about, named for, promoting, or celebrating the achievements of a particular race that I am not apart of; I feel excluded and think of that group as THEM.

Why, if unity is the goal, would you keep acting in a way that destroys that. It is apparent to most people who are honest, that the majority of the racists in this county are the minorities themself’s.

Now I find it interesting that folks , seem to just not like America. You focus on the negative, and never once give her praise for what she has done. We were among the first to legally outlaw slavery, read that again, in thousands of years of human history, the usa less than 100 years after she was formed did what governments for thousands of years never have. Never has there been a country as great as the usa. People just don’t know, and are not taught just what makes us so great. Rather they just point out the negatives, blame her, hate her, and dam her. It is outrageous. Give the USA the credit she deserves.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:45 PM
 
70 posts, read 162,626 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by peaceofmind View Post
I think that I am going to head back to NY. I will visit one day... but not in the near future. Wishing much happiness to all of the COOOOL people in MT
Hi Peace of Mind: My husband is African American, I am white. We live in NYC and are looking to move out and race is a huge factor. Just b/c people say nobody cares what race you are, you still want to live in a place where there are other people of your culture. I understand how you feel. We're looking to move anywhere in the US that is diverse enough so that neither of us feel out of place. Good luck to you.
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Old 07-20-2008, 08:06 AM
 
Location: In an alternate universe according to some, AKA Aspergers
10,214 posts, read 10,875,336 times
Reputation: 4483
Along the line of this thread, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the 3 people arrested last week for "alleged" hate crimes against asian mushroom pickers outside of Whitefish.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:18 PM
 
29,073 posts, read 33,033,661 times
Reputation: 5745
Default To mtdave....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtdave2 View Post
You keep missing my point, or you just don’t want to admit its true. These groups are by definition a raciest. I understand why the were formed, and they were needed. I am saying that how they formed them, and the attitude of the organizations are wrong. And foster the very thing they say they are against.


To me the goal should be a world were none notices skin color or race. If they keep grouping themselves together, have different and separate culture ie “the black community) it just drives the wedge between us further. It the us vs them thing.

When I see a event, group, organization ect. That is about, named for, promoting, or celebrating the achievements of a particular race that I am not apart of; I feel excluded and think of that group as THEM.

Why, if unity is the goal, would you keep acting in a way that destroys that. It is apparent to most people who are honest, that the majority of the racists in this county are the minorities themself’s.

Now I find it interesting that folks , seem to just not like America. You focus on the negative, and never once give her praise for what she has done. We were among the first to legally outlaw slavery, read that again, in thousands of years of human history, the usa less than 100 years after she was formed did what governments for thousands of years never have. Never has there been a country as great as the usa. People just don’t know, and are not taught just what makes us so great. Rather they just point out the negatives, blame her, hate her, and dam her. It is outrageous. Give the USA the credit she deserves.


Who has excluded you from celebrating with these groups? That is not true that they exclude people. They serve a need for a community and that is no different than the other ethnic groups I've named. So, should I not go to the St. Patty's Day parade in my hometown because it is celebrating an aspect of Irish culture? I don't think so. That's why diversity can be seen as a great thing, if you let it and put it into perspective.

Also, can you prove that minorities are more racist or is that just rhetoric? Again, racial classification was formed by Europeans, not "minorities". That's just a fact. So, what does one say about that? You can't take things personally though.

It seems like you are threatened by these groups for celebrating their culture. How dare they and it is o different than the many White ethnic groups that do so too. So, should those groups stop doing that or do they threaten you?

As a far as slavery, there still is slavery here in the US. Check this stuff out:09.23.2004 - Modern slavery thriving in the U.S.

iAbolish (http://www.iabolish.org/modern_slavery101/ - broken link)

Modern Slavery: People for Sale

Slavery in the U.S.A. (http://www.iabolish.org/slavery_today/usa/index.html - broken link) (just click on a state)


As for "hating" on the US, I've served my country in the military. So, this isn't about hate, it's about getting info. out there that people aren't going to take the time to get.
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