Considering Relocating to MT - many questions (Billings, Missoula: mineral rights, for sale)
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Hi, I'm Lynda. I live in MN in a small rural town with my husband and two daughters, I have a son that just recently moved out.
My husband and I have talked often about moving to Montana, but as the years have gone by we are considering the move more serious now.
We do not have a budget, time frame nor area that we are considering, we are just looking further into the options and cost of such a move.
We are looking to purchase 15-20 acres, we want to be secluded but also have access year round to our property, to get to work or to go to town.
We would also need the amenities that we have grown accustom to, electricity, water, sewer, internet, cable and cell service. I know a little 'oxymoron' to want seclusion but luxury at the same time.
Questions :
- most of the land we have seen has power that is 1/4 - 7 miles away, how would we estimate a cost to run power to our house, which is a better option, over head or under ground
- most state no water/well, how would we estimate the cost to dig a well and put in a septic tank and the size we would need
- is there natural gas lines that we can run or do we have to go with electric or wood, and how would one estimate the cost to run a gas line
- is propane an option for heat and if so, do you rent or purchase the propane tank and how would one estimate the size they would need
- many of the listings state no covenants, I'm not familiar with this term, what does that mean
- some listing say surrounded by public land or state parks, is there a preference that I should look into as to which one would be better to live by
- what type of animals are permitted, some listing say a horse is acceptable, is there guidelines as to what type of animals that are accepted
- what does it mean when the listing says we own mineral rights or that the seller gets half the mineral rights
- my husband has thought about wind or solar for a power option is anyone familiar with either of these and the cost, I heard the upfront cost is quite high
- living so far out what are the options for trash removal, are we able to burn trash or is it picked up and what would the fee be
- what are the property taxes on such a large amount of acres
- what type of property insurance does one get for acres and how would you determine the amount
- some of the properties have a road that goes through it, should we be concerned about that
- how many houses are you allowed on your property, what are the city guidelines to build/add and how many out buildings are you allowed to have (where I am now, we need a permit for everything), my daughter was wanting to build a house on our land. (actually I would love my kids to all build a house on my land, but only if it is allowed)
- what are sales tax there, here it's 6.875, are food and clothes taxed (snack/junk food and pop is taxed here)
- the majority of the property that we are looking into is listed as hunting/weekend get away but livable year round, should we be concerned
- what would we need to remove snow. right now a hand shovel and small snow blower and a bag of salt is all we need, should we look into purchasing a tractor of some type
- what type of wild animals should I be aware of, are there any poisonous animals
I think that is all the questions that I have right now. I know a lot of these would need much more research and talking to the right person for the answer that I am seeking, but a little help in the right direction would be helpful.
Thank you for any answers you can give me or directions you can steer me in. It is greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the Montana Boards
I will try to answer some of your questions in red below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyndaG
Hi, I'm Lynda. I live in MN in a small rural town with my husband and two daughters, I have a son that just recently moved out.
My husband and I have talked often about moving to Montana, but as the years have gone by we are considering the move more serious now.
We do not have a budget, time frame nor area that we are considering, we are just looking further into the options and cost of such a move.
We are looking to purchase 15-20 acres, we want to be secluded but also have access year round to our property, to get to work or to go to town.
We would also need the amenities that we have grown accustom to, electricity, water, sewer, internet, cable and cell service. I know a little 'oxymoron' to want seclusion but luxury at the same time.
Questions :
- most of the land we have seen has power that is 1/4 - 7 miles away, how would we estimate a cost to run power to our house, which is a better option, over head or under ground
Depends on who the power supplier is. REAs are a lot cheaper than Nortwest Energy, but you can be looking at $10K plus for a line that long either over head or under ground, but burried line is better.
- most state no water/well, how would we estimate the cost to dig a well and put in a septic tank and the size we would need
Depth is going to depend a lot on where you are. Some places you can find water at 30 feet, others it could be a thousand feet. Most wells are going to be 6 inch tubes. Well drillers charge by the foot.
Septic you will need to run a perk test to see if you will have the absorbtion rate necessary for a septic field. If you don't, you may have to put in a holding tank that gets pumped once or twice a year.
- is there natural gas lines that we can run or do we have to go with electric or wood, and how would one estimate the cost to run a gas line
Natural gas availability is usually limited to within city limits.
- is propane an option for heat and if so, do you rent or purchase the propane tank and how would one estimate the size they would need
Propane is widely used. The tanks are rented and most of the tanks are at least 1000 gallons for a residence or home.
- many of the listings state no covenants, I'm not familiar with this term, what does that mean
Covenants are the previous owners way of saying, "you don't really own the place because I get to say what you can do on it".
They can tell you what size or style of home to build, if you can have animals or raise a garden, what color you can paint your barn, all sorts of stupid stuff.
Avoid at all costs if you actually want to live on the place.
- some listing say surrounded by public land or state parks, is there a preference that I should look into as to which one would be better to live by
Either one offers elbow room, but both will allow access to the general public. Kind of like living next to a large city park, but nicer because you can usually hunt on that ground.
- what type of animals are permitted, some listing say a horse is acceptable, is there guidelines as to what type of animals that are accepted
Depends on the covenants. No covenants, you can have what you want.
- what does it mean when the listing says we own mineral rights or that the seller gets half the mineral rights
In Montana a seller may retain some of the rights or only own part of the right that can be sold to you. If somebody else owns the right and something of value is found on the land, they can mine it or drill for it, on your land, and you get nothing out of it. Full rights are best.
- my husband has thought about wind or solar for a power option is anyone familiar with either of these and the cost, I heard the upfront cost is quite high
It can be very high based on the system you want which would be based on your power usage. With the high price of running line, it becomes far more acceptable. A professionally installed solar power system can run $60,000 or more. Montana isn't the best state for solar power, especially the west side, wind is good on the east, but neither are on demand power and require a generator backup.
- living so far out what are the options for trash removal, are we able to burn trash or is it picked up and what would the fee be
Different counties have different rates, and usually there are private companies that provide the service as well. Lots of folks do burn some of their trash and take the unburnable stuff to the dump.
- what are the property taxes on such a large amount of acres
A small place like you describe of 15-20 acres would be considered probably residential and taxed according to the local school levies. Little place like that would be basically a yard not a farm and it would be hard to keep more than a couple sheep or goats on something that small.
- what type of property insurance does one get for acres and how would you determine the amount
Liability is the basic one, depends on how much protection you want.
- some of the properties have a road that goes through it, should we be concerned about that
Depends on if the right of way is to private or public land. Public land may see a lot of traffic on the road.
- how many houses are you allowed on your property, what are the city guidelines to build/add and how many out buildings are you allowed to have (where I am now, we need a permit for everything), my daughter was wanting to build a house on our land. (actually I would love my kids to all build a house on my land, but only if it is allowed)
Depends on the county you build in. Outside city limits, unless you are subdividing, usually there are no inspections or regulations on the number of buildings. You will probably be taxed on additional buildings though.
- what are sales tax there, here it's 6.875, are food and clothes taxed (snack/junk food and pop is taxed here)
No sales tax in Montana.
- the majority of the property that we are looking into is listed as hunting/weekend get away but livable year round, should we be concerned
Hunting/weekend properties are usually advertised to out of state people wanting their own cabin in the woods where they go once a year for 2 weeks.
Year round access is important if you plan on living there.
- what would we need to remove snow. right now a hand shovel and small snow blower and a bag of salt is all we need, should we look into purchasing a tractor of some type
Depends on how close to the county road you are and where you are. Some places in the state get snow measured in feet per storm, some places will only see a few inches all winter and that usually goes off quickly. The state is huge with several different climates. There isn't a once size fits all answer, but if you have a long road that isn't maintained, a tractor or truck with a plow or blower would be a good investment.
- what type of wild animals should I be aware of, are there any poisonous animals
Depends on where you are. The eastern plains have the prarie rattlesnake, but they aren't aggressive. Some areas have Black Widow spiders. There are wood ticks as well.
We also have Grizzly Bear, Canadian Grey wolves, Mountain Lion, Black Bear, and several other smaller animals that can hurt like Porkupines and skunks, and bats can always carry rabies.
I think that is all the questions that I have right now. I know a lot of these would need much more research and talking to the right person for the answer that I am seeking, but a little help in the right direction would be helpful.
Thank you for any answers you can give me or directions you can steer me in. It is greatly appreciated.
Montana is a great place, but you need to narrow your search as there are a lot of different environments and situations depending on where you are.
MTSilvertip - Thank you so much for your responses to my questions. They were very helpful. Thank you for the Welcome, I look forward to reading the other post to give me more info about Montana.
Some of the things we are looking for to give us an idea of where to start looking are:
Trees - don't want prairie flat land
Views - would like mountain views but just a nice view is ok
Don't want to be right next to our neighbor - we live in town and have a neighbor from hell right now
Close to a larger town - don't mind a drive of 30-45 miles (we are 30 miles to a large town now)
Milder winters - being in MN we are used to cold and snow. don't mind it so much. just want less of it
The things we would like to see in the town that we are close to are:
clinic/hospital
eye dr
dentist
grocery store
walmart
some type of shopping place for the necessities - hair cuts, clothes, house hold items and the such
One more question that I have is, are you allowed to have a gas tank on land there.
Unless you do not require employment, I respectfully suggest you secure jobs first and look for property second. As MTSilvertip said Montana covers a big area. I could give you many locations that meet your criteria but if you require employment they would be of no use to you. If you do not require employment, give an idea of what your budget is & I will steer you in right direction.
In rural areas (outside of incorporated towns) above ground gas and diesel tanks are typically leased from a bulk distributor and are located on prepared pads for spillage recovery. Buried fuel tanks are purchased and must be approved & licensed with the state.
There are no cities in Montana. Some towns of 5,000 have all amenities you seek with exception of a Walmart and some much larger ones do not. Every region has picturesque locations.
MTSilvertip - Thank you so much for your responses to my questions. They were very helpful. Thank you for the Welcome, I look forward to reading the other post to give me more info about Montana.
Some of the things we are looking for to give us an idea of where to start looking are:
Trees - don't want prairie flat land
Montana isn't like Kansas or Nebraska, even our praries usually have breaks and and hoodoos, you can usually see mountains in the distance. About the only place that would really be plains is along some of the highline.
Views - would like mountain views but just a nice view is ok
Much of the state has long views, the northwest corner has views restricted by trees, but some of the eastern areas with mountains in the distance have a lot of good views.
Don't want to be right next to our neighbor - we live in town and have a neighbor from hell right now
Close to a larger town - don't mind a drive of 30-45 miles (we are 30 miles to a large town now)
That's not hard, we only have a few larger towns, so most people live within 1/2 hour drive of town. Although there are some areas where going to town can be a full day event....
Neighbors, that just depends on where your land is and if you are in a development or not. At my cabin for instance, my nearest neighbor is over a mile away, but those are larger pieces of ground than the 15-20 acres you mentioned in your earlier post.
Milder winters - being in MN we are used to cold and snow. don't mind it so much. just want less of it
West of the Divide has warmer temperatures, but can get more snow, east of the divide is usually colder with more wind, but less snow.
Some areas like around Billings are probably the best mid way between the two with lighter snowpack and more moderate temps in the winter.
The things we would like to see in the town that we are close to are:
clinic/hospital
eye dr
dentist
grocery store
walmart
some type of shopping place for the necessities - hair cuts, clothes, house hold items and the such
One more question that I have is, are you allowed to have a gas tank on land there.
Most farmers/ranchers will have above ground tanks, some below. You can pick up used tanks pretty cheap at farm auctions sometimes
Wal mart usually means a larger town like Bozeman or Billings or Helena. Most small towns will have something like a Pamida or Shop-ko or K-mart or something.
For the Eye Dr and Dentist, you will probably need a town of at least 1500-2000 population. Many of the smaller towns have to travel to a larger town for those kind of services.
Most small towns will have a grocery of some kind, but it's usually a trip to a larger town for much selection and better prices.
Small towns like Townsend or Whitehall for example would have pretty much everything you noted in one place, and are close to Butte/Helena and Bozeman for major shopping or medical needs.
I agree with historyfan, find a job first if you need it. Jobs here usually don't pay a whole lot and can be few and far between.
Get a solid job lined up, then look around the area you find it to get a place to live that meets your criteria.
Historyfan - As far as a budget, we are still trying to figure that part out. We have looked up many sites for land for sale and with out the proper information, just based on the relator sites, we have noticed that 20 acres will probably run $20-40,000. Some of the land has power, some does not, so these other expenses is what we are trying to figure out as well.
To run power, solar, wind or a combination of them.
The cost to dig a well and/or septic
The cost to build a small cabin style house right away or something we can move in for a temporary house.
We have decided to move to the western side of Montana, near Missula or Helena. We have also decided that an hour away from either of these two towns is acceptable.
Employment is not an issue, well that is what my husband is saying. He has a CDL and many contacts that he is not worried about finding a job. He was talking to his dispatch, at the job he currently has and mentioned moving to Montana and his dispatch said he could get him a job no problem. Actually told him that he personally has at least 10 options for him right now, plus knows several companies that they work with and contract through, that employment is not going to be a problem.
Thank you everyone for taking the time to help me. I have relayed all the information to my husband and he is currently doing more research based on your answers to my questions. This is such a big help in helping us plan for our move in the future.
Typically small parcels under 100 acres that are year round weather accessible cost $4,000/ac undeveloped. Ones with a view, along a river or lake, or forest are listed for considerably more. In my opinion right now the real estate bargains are in the Thompson Falls/Trout Creek part of Montana. There is little for employment in that region which keeps the prices low for Montana.
Developing raw land can be expensive relative to the purchase price. Well drilling could cost under $10,000 or $50,000. I have known people that have spent $75,000 getting water in enough to supply a household and keep a lawn green. It can be a crap shoot. Electricity brought in buried or overhead depends on the utility company. Others on this forum can give you current estimates. Septic system to be used varies on the soil type and distance to state water... creek/river/lake. Solar system could be $65,000 to run an entire household. Some utilities offer a cost share some do not. Some offer ability to roll back meter some do not. In areas with a steady breeze wind turbines can be a better bang for buck. Site prep and road building can vary widely by available equipment operators and materials so that will also be location specific. You can spend $1,500 a day building a driveway.
If you luck out you might be able to buy the acreage and improve it for under $100,000. House construction costs are all over the board and very much localized. In most parts of the state $200,000 would buy modest new construction, a large big family modest finishes house will be at least $260,000 without a garage.
Do not take the real estate agent's estimated costs for developing parcels. Get those from well drillers, utility compaies, etc before you make an offer.
We have purchased old farms & ranches and overhauled them. You might do this on a smaller scale with an existing undesireable house. Sometimes leveling and hauling off old buildings is cheaper than starting with undeveloped because the electric line is there. I have had to have wells drilled because the existing were poor and have always put in new septic. But it has been better than starting fresh. There are always old established trees and other mature bushes that would take decades to grow and a few outbuildings that are salvageable.
Thank you for all the info and responses. This past year has been hectic to say the least, job loss, a death in the family and personal situations had put or plans of moving on hold.
It amazes me at times to look back at the past year and see what has been thrown at us and what we have over come. With that being said, my husband and I are more determined to set some real plans in place and consider our move to MT in the next few years.
We have been doing a lot of research over the past few months, based on all the info we have gotten here. We have always lived in a town/city environment and have always had what we needed at our fingertips, for the most part.
We are looking to a more simple life, more of an off grid life. I still have questions about this but for now we are researching and surfing the web for all of our questions to get some answers. I would have to say that we have found some interesting off grid living advice from people that have been doing it for 20+ years but we never get the questions answered that have us still questioning a few things.
We have done a lot of research on land and the area we want to relocate to. However, when you are looking for land that is stated in the listing as 'road has no maintenance in winter and would need a snowmobile nov-may' has me a little concerned.
My concern is school. I have a daughter that will still be in school when we move and where I am, school is something that kids have to go to or you are being charged with truancy and family services get involved, along with the county attorney and possibly the court system. My daughter said she would rather be home schooled, but I have no clue what that all entails and how to go about doing it.
I think at times I find things to detour me from making the choice to move, but after a drug raid on a house across the alley from me, I know in my heart I want to move more now than I have ever wanted to in the past. I just want to make sure in my decision that I have covered everything and that the surprises that may come up I can handle.
I have always been the type of person that stockpiles, to have what is needed on hand at all times. My husband is a jack of all trades and rarely do we ever have to hire anyone to do anything, electric/plumbing is the only thing we have to hire out for, everything needs to be certified by a professional.
We have a little more remodeling left on our house before its ready to be listed, sewer back up and flooding in the basement from a flash flood last august, has us putting the kitchen and the rest of our remodel from last year on hold.
In august we are planning a visit to MT to look at some property, Missoula, powell and granite county is where we will start looking. I believe, Clinton, Drummond are the names of the towns that are near by some of the land. I don't have my map in front of me, but do remember those two names coming up a lot.
Thanks for letting me vent a little, can't wait tell august when I get to visit MT again.
Welcome back. Sorry to hear of your losses for the past year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyndaG
We have done a lot of research on land and the area we want to relocate to. However, when you are looking for land that is stated in the listing as 'road has no maintenance in winter and would need a snowmobile nov-may' has me a little concerned.
That means you need to have your own snowplow, and the road is probably unimproved 2 track goat trail or leftover logging skid trail. Beautiful in the summer, less so in the winter especially if you have to get out for any reason.
You need to confirm that any land you look at has a deeded easment, and I am also very cautious about the roads as during the winter you may have snowdrifts 6+ feet deep, and in the spring a bottomless morass of mud.
You definately need at least a gravel road into the property or along the property line. Even then, you would probably need a snowplow on a truck or tractor, or better yet a snow blower for the truck or tractor. Some folks use a 4 wheeler/ATV with a plow or blower, but those are for areas with limited snowpack.
You don't want a place that is only snowmobile access in the winter, That means deep snowpack and you may or maynot get out until spring.
My concern is school. I have a daughter that will still be in school when we move and where I am, school is something that kids have to go to or you are being charged with truancy and family services get involved, along with the county attorney and possibly the court system. My daughter said she would rather be home schooled, but I have no clue what that all entails and how to go about doing it.
Montana has excellent public schools, but a lot of people choose to homeschool. Homeschooling in Montana
It's a very viable option here if that's what you want to do. Montana is much less liberal than Minn. so we don't have the level of Gestapo style family services you describe.
I think at times I find things to detour me from making the choice to move, but after a drug raid on a house across the alley from me, I know in my heart I want to move more now than I have ever wanted to in the past. I just want to make sure in my decision that I have covered everything and that the surprises that may come up I can handle.
Rural areas in Montana have been known to have a meth problem where pushers are making the stuff. They need anhydrous amonia, and because it's a fertilizer component, it can be stolen from farms, so that's where they go.
Normally, that activity is known in the community and the sheriff's office is quickly notified. Not as big an issue as in more populated areas.
I have always been the type of person that stockpiles, to have what is needed on hand at all times. My husband is a jack of all trades and rarely do we ever have to hire anyone to do anything, electric/plumbing is the only thing we have to hire out for, everything needs to be certified by a professional.
We have a little more remodeling left on our house before its ready to be listed, sewer back up and flooding in the basement from a flash flood last august, has us putting the kitchen and the rest of our remodel from last year on hold.
In august we are planning a visit to MT to look at some property, Missoula, powell and granite county is where we will start looking. I believe, Clinton, Drummond are the names of the towns that are near by some of the land. I don't have my map in front of me, but do remember those two names coming up a lot.
Clinton is a great little town, my uncle lived there for years. There's a big stone quarry there, you may want to check to see if they're hiring. Just be sure where the land you're looking at is, and that it's accessable as it's steep mountains all around town.
Drummond is more remote, fantastic little town, has some of the best hamburgers you'll ever find anywhere.
Good community spirit, very neighborly people. Very conservative area, lots of family activities and town events. Mostly agriculture in the area and I really like it as a place to have a family.
Missoula is the liberal enclave for the state, lots of burned out old hippys, hipsters, marajuana law isn't enforced, college town with lots of the associated issues, and very bad traffic. I wouldn't reccomend it.
Last year for some reason they had a naked bicycle ride through town. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to have to follow some guy's naked, hairy butt across town to go to lunch.
Thanks for letting me vent a little, can't wait tell august when I get to visit MT again.
Glad to see you're back.
Let us know if you have more questions.
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