Where has the courtesy gone? (Belgrade: living, law, babysitting)

[Debee]

Your not alone in your feelings Jim. We feel the same way. Just because you live in the country shouldnt mean you dont have the right to enjoy your land as much as the next guy. I get fed up with the pat reply" if dont like it move to the city". Anyway I thought you might get a chuckle out of this For Cryin' Out Loud we did.

[rickers]

Jimj, that is one of the many reasons we rented our our place in Hot Springs and moved to Conrad. I don't think I heard more than 5 or 6 firecrackers total before and after the 4th. Our town is a very strict law and order type of place. In the few months we have been here I've only seen one loose dog.

[bigtrees]

Originally Posted by Debee

I get fed up with the pat reply" if dont like it move to the city".

OK, perhaps I should explain my response about suggesting a move to Kalispell as an effective way of avoiding the problems of too few laws. A lot of people enjoy living in Montana because of the freedoms that we have in the state and many people feel the sacrifices (not as much income, long winters) are worth it because of those freedoms. But the same people then complain when a neighbor is doing something that they don't approve of - and want those very freedoms taken away because of a perceived issue.

A lot of people will move into the country to get away from people, and then want city like services (good fire and police response, careful regulations to prevent things from getting out of hand, etc) and be confused why the government can't provide these services. In fact, the people moved to the country to get away from all of these needs and then realized how much they miss them!

Perhaps it would have been more effective to suggest incorporating your neighborhood into a town or getting annexed with a neighboring town. Evergreen is a case in point - it has high enough density to justify being part of Kalispell, but the people who live in Evergreen don't want to live in the city. That way you can have the additional laws and regulations that come with living in a city but don't have to end up moving

[Debee]

I didnt mean to sound like i was refering to any comment anyone made here when i said that , i hadnt read yours by the way. Its just the answer you hear all the time "move if ya dont like it .Ive had this conversation with many others and it just goes in circles.Its just as easy for me to say "if you cant have some courtesy go move to 100 acres so you dont bother anyone. Thats harldy fair either. The Noisy ones Always think they have more rights than the ones that want to sit in there yard on ten acres and listen to the birds and squirrels and watch the deer roaming thru there yard etc. Both have rights but seems nothing can be done for the "quiet ones". It comes down to courtesy again. Like the title of this thread.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by jimj

Sorry bigtrees but there's gonna be some kind of county ordinance if it kills me. I wish it wasn't needed but since people can't seem to control themselves or their kids and could care less about the people that live around them and since it's illegal for me to take care of it myself what choice is left? You can't legislate common sense but can sure make it uncomfortable for the idiots who don't use it.
I'm put into a corner, I either fight and go to jail or just realize that sleep is something that's a maybe...

Take care that your proposed new law doesn't have drastic unintended consequences.

A "no loud noises between 10pm and 7am" law WILL run out any dairies, feedlots, stables, kennels, and probably other types of livestock-related operations that don't instantly leap to mind -- because livestock wake up and start bawling at the butt-crack of dawn (which in a northern climate means 4.30 AM in summer) every single day all year long. (Chickens are worse; they sometimes make rackets all night as well.) And what about haying and harvesting operations that sometimes need to run very early or even all night to get the crop in before that hailstorm arrives?? a noise curfew could put a farmer into bankruptcy that quick. These sorts of laws don't make exceptions; you have to fight it in court after the fact and spend a lot of money defending your right to make a living, and usually LOSE. (I personally know of cases where a long-established dairy and TWO long-established kennels were put out of business by a new noise curfew, cuz cows and dogs both caterwaul first thing in the morning, that's just how it is, but courts nearly always find in favour of newly-arrived homeowners, not existing ag business.)

This is why if you do make a noise curfew law, it needs to be very specific and limited to the exact offense; it cannot be broad or open to interpretation, and it absolutely cannot impact existing operations. Specify fireworks and gunfire ONLY, but don't make it a general noise curfew, or what will happen is that McRanch homeowners-associations WILL start enforcing it on the neighbouring farmer, dairy, kennel, stable, and rancher... with disastrous consequences.

Of course, if you WANT to encourage McRanches, then by all means have a general townie-style noise curfew. That will ensure that more farm/ranchland becomes available for subdividing, as more ag-type businesses fail (and are "rescued" by out-of-state realtors) thanks to being prohibited from making the noises-at-all-hours any sort of ag operation makes.

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[Debee]

Originally Posted by Reziac

Take care that your proposed new law doesn't have drastic unintended consequences.

A "no loud noises between 10pm and 7am" law WILL run out any dairies, feedlots, stables, kennels, and probably other types of livestock-related operations that don't instantly leap to mind -- because livestock wake up and start bawling at the butt-crack of dawn (which in a northern climate means 4.30 AM in summer) every single day all year long. (Chickens are worse; they sometimes make rackets all night as well.) And what about haying and harvesting operations that sometimes need to run very early or even all night to get the crop in before that hailstorm arrives?? a noise curfew could put a farmer into bankruptcy that quick. These sorts of laws don't make exceptions; you have to fight it in court after the fact and spend a lot of money defending your right to make a living, and usually LOSE. (I personally know of cases where a long-established dairy and TWO long-established kennels were put out of business by a new noise curfew, cuz cows and dogs both caterwaul first thing in the morning, that's just how it is, but courts nearly always find in favour of newly-arrived homeowners, not existing ag business.)

This is why if you do make a noise curfew law, it needs to be very specific and limited to the exact offense; it cannot be broad or open to interpretation, and it absolutely cannot impact existing operations. Specify fireworks and gunfire ONLY, but don't make it a general noise curfew, or what will happen is that McRanch homeowners-associations WILL start enforcing it on the neighbouring farmer, dairy, kennel, stable, and rancher... with disastrous consequences.

Of course, if you WANT to encourage McRanches, then by all means have a general townie-style noise curfew. That will ensure that more farm/ranchland becomes available for subdividing, as more ag-type businesses fail (and are "rescued" by out-of-state realtors) thanks to being prohibited from making the noises-at-all-hours any sort of ag operation makes.

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I Agree , or my husband would be out of a job !

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Reziac

Take care that your proposed new law doesn't have drastic unintended consequences.

A "no loud noises between 10pm and 7am" law WILL run out any dairies, feedlots, stables, kennels, and probably other types of livestock-related operations that don't instantly leap to mind -- because livestock wake up and start bawling at the butt-crack of dawn (which in a northern climate means 4.30 AM in summer) every single day all year long. (Chickens are worse; they sometimes make rackets all night as well.) And what about haying and harvesting operations that sometimes need to run very early or even all night to get the crop in before that hailstorm arrives?? a noise curfew could put a farmer into bankruptcy that quick. These sorts of laws don't make exceptions; you have to fight it in court after the fact and spend a lot of money defending your right to make a living, and usually LOSE. (I personally know of cases where a long-established dairy and TWO long-established kennels were put out of business by a new noise curfew, cuz cows and dogs both caterwaul first thing in the morning, that's just how it is, but courts nearly always find in favour of newly-arrived homeowners, not existing ag business.)

This is why if you do make a noise curfew law, it needs to be very specific and limited to the exact offense; it cannot be broad or open to interpretation, and it absolutely cannot impact existing operations. Specify fireworks and gunfire ONLY, but don't make it a general noise curfew, or what will happen is that McRanch homeowners-associations WILL start enforcing it on the neighbouring farmer, dairy, kennel, stable, and rancher... with disastrous consequences.

Of course, if you WANT to encourage McRanches, then by all means have a general townie-style noise curfew. That will ensure that more farm/ranchland becomes available for subdividing, as more ag-type businesses fail (and are "rescued" by out-of-state realtors) thanks to being prohibited from making the noises-at-all-hours any sort of ag operation makes.

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I agree, I wouldn't want that to happen either. The idea is fireworks specific and the ideal regulation would be on the 4th of july and new years eve, not a day before or a day after. I'd even compromise if the 3rd of july had to be added in for people who have no patience. Other than fireworks other noises are part of daily life out here and it's usually really,really quiet.
An example, we have some people clearing trees and building about 400 yards away on the other side of a stand of trees. They've been starting work at 0530 which on first blush is kind of annoying, why couldn't they wait 'till 0700 to start? Well I understand the short construction season and I also know it won't be forever and they need to get it done so that's what has to happen and we just blow it off as part of life in a county that's growing. Soon enough we'll be back to quiet.
With fireworks it's a different story, there's no need for them to be shot off at any other time than one or two days a year.

[grannymontanny]

If you were to call and complain about the fireworks ,or loud music as was my case.all they will tell you is we have no laws in the county ,BUT,if you are calling to complain about a barking dog,we can do somthing about that. now to me that makes no since at all.why would a dog barking be deemed more annoying than a neighbor,blaring his radio from five acres away so loud you cant enjoy sitting on your deck. we live in the county,where the deer,bear,and everything else wander ,(one of the joys of living out here) dogs are gonna bark at these from time to time,i know mine do. but other noises that disturb out sleep or peace and quiet they can do nothing about? should be a way to write these things up using common since.

[bigtrees]

I've said it before on here without avail, but I would suggest enforcing the existing laws that are already on the books. Making loud or unusual noises is considered disturbing the peace, and I think the noises that jimj experienced on the 10th of July would be considered loud and unusual.

I cannot say how the sheriff's office would respond to such a complaint. You can read the law and see what you think in your own mind.

For reference, here is the section of Montana Code Annotated that describes disorderly conduct.

45-8-101. Disorderly conduct. (1) A person commits the offense of disorderly conduct if he knowingly disturbs the peace by:
(a) quarreling, challenging to fight, or fighting;
(b) making loud or unusual noises;
(c) using threatening, profane, or abusive language;
(d) discharging firearms, except at a shooting range during established hours of operation;
(e) rendering vehicular or pedestrian traffic impassable;
(f) rendering the free ingress or egress to public or private places impassable;
(g) disturbing or disrupting any lawful assembly or public meeting;
(h) transmitting a false report or warning of a fire or other catastrophe in such a place that its occurrence would endanger human life;
(i) creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; or
(j) transmitting a false report or warning of an impending explosion in such a place that its occurrence would endanger human life.
(2) Except as provided in subsection (3), a person convicted of the offense of disorderly conduct shall be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 10 days, or both.
(3) A person convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(j) shall be fined not to exceed $1,000 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 1 year, or both.

[Debee]

Originally Posted by bigtrees

I've said it before on here without avail, but I would suggest enforcing the existing laws that are already on the books. Making loud or unusual noises is considered disturbing the peace, and I think the noises that jimj experienced on the 10th of July would be considered loud and unusual.

I cannot say how the sheriff's office would respond to such a complaint. You can read the law and see what you think in your own mind.

For reference, here is the section of Montana Code Annotated that describes disorderly conduct.

45-8-101. Disorderly conduct. (1) A person commits the offense of disorderly conduct if he knowingly disturbs the peace by:
(a) quarreling, challenging to fight, or fighting;
(b) making loud or unusual noises;
(c) using threatening, profane, or abusive language;
(d) discharging firearms, except at a shooting range during established hours of operation;
(e) rendering vehicular or pedestrian traffic impassable;
(f) rendering the free ingress or egress to public or private places impassable;
(g) disturbing or disrupting any lawful assembly or public meeting;
(h) transmitting a false report or warning of a fire or other catastrophe in such a place that its occurrence would endanger human life;
(i) creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; or
(j) transmitting a false report or warning of an impending explosion in such a place that its occurrence would endanger human life.
(2) Except as provided in subsection (3), a person convicted of the offense of disorderly conduct shall be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 10 days, or both.
(3) A person convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(j) shall be fined not to exceed $1,000 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 1 year, or both.

Well if all of that is on the books then the Flathead sheriff dispatch gal needs to read it! She would argue with at least three of those.
At least three families have called in about :
Shooting all day long , i mean all day long. Not just an occasional practice.
And music so loud from acres away we can tell you every word of the song. The dispatch gets very annoyed and says theres no noise ordinace in the county.
If those are the laws then why the heck arent they enforced.

I FORGOT TO ADD OUR OWN FIREWORKS PROBLEM THAT STARTS WEEKS BEFORE AND GOES WEEKS AFTER