new people... (Missoula, Kalispell: crime, new home, job market)

[rickers]

I think many Montana folks don't like Missoula because the place embraces hippy/ alternative lifestyles. As far as speaking only English goes, this is a free country and people should speak whatever the heck they want. It wasn't just the English and French who colonized our country. Remember that the state of Montana has a Spanish name and our state motto is in Spanish.

[CatherineFrances]

Originally Posted by rickers

I think many Montana folks don't like Missoula because the place embraces hippy/ alternative lifestyles. As far as speaking only English goes, this is a free country and people should speak whatever the heck they want. It wasn't just the English and French who colonized our country. Remember that the state of Montana has a Spanish name and our state motto is in Spanish.

I think what you said about Missoula is one reason why many people don't like the town.

I don't care if people speak ANY language while they are NOT working, in school, voting, working in a government position as one example, etc. but if they are in certain professions where ENGLISH FIRST should be expected - they should speak, read and write in English. NO offense to anyone but if you come here from another country - you should have to jump through the same hoops as any other or MOST legal immigrants had to do to get a job whether they applied for and/or became a citizen down the road.

I know many people who speak several languages and especially ones from their 'homeland' or where their parents/grandparents came from. Voting booths, schools, jobs, the military, driving schools, etc. did not CATER to them years ago and 'these' legal immigrants and their families did NOT expect to be catered to as future Americans in the grand melting pot called America.

No one deserves any more special 'rights' or 'breaks' when it comes to America's language being English First than the next guy/gal because of where they hail from or what they look like. Call me old fashioned and I come from an All American Mutt Family.

Some family members (Mentors too!) from a few ships past the Mayflower, back east, and some who came in via Ellis Island. Some of them had to learn English too - not ALL of them but some of them.

Catherine

[rickers]

Maybe we should establish an "official" national language.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Gman2007

I love your logic - because you want to send money to your family somewhere, you will lie, cheat, and steal from ME and my baby to feed your baby! And, statistically yes, those who are coming her illegally are more prone to commit felonies once here! If you already disregard the law enough to come illegally into the country you've already in your mind justified that breaking the law is okay. Take a look at the statistics for just the sex crimes committed by illegal immigrants:

Study: 1 million sex crimes by illegals

I recall a stat to the effect that at present, something like 25% of our violent-crime prison inmates are illegals, tho they're "only" about 10% of the population. I don't care if it's sex crimes or armed robbery, they're still generating more than their fair share of problems. Another issue is that many duck taxes entirely -- paid in cash (doing jobs our own high school kids are now too snooty to do) and then send half the money to their relatives south of the border -- so no, their wages do NOT re-enter our own economy; this money is simply sucked out of us, permanently.

What I've really noticed, living in a border state with a huge illegal population, is the endemic petty theft. The first generation don't quite have the concept of property (nor of taking care of stuff) -- to them it's just "borrowing" and they don't get why you're mad that they took your stuff, after all in their minds you could have just borrowed it back (oops, sorry we broke it in the meantime). If it isn't locked up, they figure it's fair game for anyone. Yeah, it's a cultural difference, and maybe it works fine back in an impoverished village in the Old Country, but here in MY country it's inflicting THEIR culture on ME. (Also, the landfill crisis is largely secondary to the illegal population -- I don't know how they do it, but they generate roughly 5 times as much trash per person as any American family I've ever seen.)

Mexico has just as many natural resources as the U.S., and possibly more in minerals and metals, and they've got their share of smart and ambitious people. The only reason it's not a fabulously rich country with a zero poverty rate is the corruption that permeates the government (including local law enforcement -- right now Mexico is on the State Department's Do Not Travel list due to extortion being practiced on any gringo thought to have money). Their lack of desire to run their own country to the benefit of their own citizens (rather than solely for the benefit of the privileged few) is NOT OUR PROBLEM, nor should we have to absorb the people that their own homegrown mess displaces. They've had over a hundred years to fix their mess and they still haven't done it (if anything it's getting worse; I have to wonder how much "free trade" has had to do with that), so don't go blaming the old European empires either.

And don't go spouting "globalization" at me. Globalization just means everyone eventually gets to be equally poor no matter how hard they work, and those who can't get their act together get supported by the rest of us.... now on a global scale instead of merely local.

[anthonyr]

Originally Posted by Gman2007

I love your logic - because you want to send money to your family somewhere, you will lie, cheat, and steal from ME and my baby to feed your baby! And, statistically yes, those who are coming her illegally are more prone to commit felonies once here! If you already disregard the law enough to come illegally into the country you've already in your mind justified that breaking the law is okay. Take a look at the statistics for just the sex crimes committed by illegal immigrants:

Study: 1 million sex crimes by illegals

And take a look at the statistics for sex crimes commited by your upstanding U.S. citizens- Hmmm. Not to mention all of the other sex crimes and other acts that go unreported. Didn't a well respected police officer from missoula just get sentenced for using the city computer to download kiddie porn?

[anthonyr]

Originally Posted by Reziac

I recall a stat to the effect that at present, something like 25% of our violent-crime prison inmates are illegals, tho they're "only" about 10% of the population. I don't care if it's sex crimes or armed robbery, they're still generating more than their fair share of problems. Another issue is that many duck taxes entirely -- paid in cash (doing jobs our own high school kids are now too snooty to do) and then send half the money to their relatives south of the border -- so no, their wages do NOT re-enter our own economy; this money is simply sucked out of us, permanently.

What I've really noticed, living in a border state with a huge illegal population, is the endemic petty theft. The first generation don't quite have the concept of property (nor of taking care of stuff) -- to them it's just "borrowing" and they don't get why you're mad that they took your stuff, after all in their minds you could have just borrowed it back (oops, sorry we broke it in the meantime). If it isn't locked up, they figure it's fair game for anyone. Yeah, it's a cultural difference, and maybe it works fine back in an impoverished village in the Old Country, but here in MY country it's inflicting THEIR culture on ME. (Also, the landfill crisis is largely secondary to the illegal population -- I don't know how they do it, but they generate roughly 5 times as much trash per person as any American family I've ever seen.)

Mexico has just as many natural resources as the U.S., and possibly more in minerals and metals, and they've got their share of smart and ambitious people. The only reason it's not a fabulously rich country with a zero poverty rate is the corruption that permeates the government (including local law enforcement -- right now Mexico is on the State Department's Do Not Travel list due to extortion being practiced on any gringo thought to have money). Their lack of desire to run their own country to the benefit of their own citizens (rather than solely for the benefit of the privileged few) is NOT OUR PROBLEM, nor should we have to absorb the people that their own homegrown mess displaces. They've had over a hundred years to fix their mess and they still haven't done it (if anything it's getting worse; I have to wonder how much "free trade" has had to do with that), so don't go blaming the old European empires either.

And don't go spouting "globalization" at me. Globalization just means everyone eventually gets to be equally poor no matter how hard they work, and those who can't get their act together get supported by the rest of us.... now on a global scale instead of merely local.

Your reasoning is flawed. Sure there are problems with illegal immigration. Instead of criticizing and placing blame, why don't you do something about it? Run for office or petition your representatives to do something. When you start generalizing about another culture in negative ways, you are breeding malice and hate. You obviously don't know what globalization is, as your definition is wrong as well. We are living in a globalized world whether you like it or not. Hitler had many of the same point of views as some of you on this board. Is that the path you wish the U.S. to take?

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

Your reasoning is flawed. Sure there are problems with illegal immigration. Instead of criticizing and placing blame, why don't you do something about it? Run for office or petition your representatives to do something. When you start generalizing about another culture in negative ways, you are breeding malice and hate. You obviously don't know what globalization is, as your definition is wrong as well. We are living in a globalized world whether you like it or not. Hitler had many of the same point of views as some of you on this board. Is that the path you wish the U.S. to take?

I grew up in Montana, but for the past 25 years I've lived in SoCalifornia. I see the issues with illegal immigration all around me every day. I used to be all for helping the poor downtrodden immigrant fleeing the evils of the old country.. until I'd lived here for a while, and realised that illegals were bringing those evils here with them (rather than leaving them behind), and that given public policy as it stood, we citizens had no choice but to bend over and take it. My own state senator and representative (both excellent defenders of citizens' rights) understand this and have done what they can, but when the majority of a state's legislature can't see beyond the next election and are terrified of offending the hispanic voting bloc, it's a lost cause.

As to cultural differences -- well, if these people came here and paid taxes and kept their money in American circulation, maybe I wouldn't be so resentful of the rather large subset of illegals that live like pigs (drive through a barrio someday and tell me it's not so -- and poverty is no excuse for dumping garbage in the streets). As it is, I pay taxes to support their welfare babies and their prison population (it costs more to house one prisoner for a year than I make in that same year) and the escalating costs of an infrastructure that can't keep up with the added strain, and meanwhile my way of life is being taken away right before my very eyes. I'm supposed to bend over and take it because it's "unjust" that I don't like someone inflicting their culture's worst points on my country's way of life??

I've watched "globalization" destroy what remains of American industry, and put us in hock to foreign interests. My power bill is now TEN TIMES what it was 10 years ago (despite using 1/3rd less) because "globalized" energy interests now own the generating plants. I can't buy decent tools at any price, because with "free trade" it's more profitable for business to shut down American factories, put Americans out of work, and instead import Chinese junk. Every time I drive down the main drag I'm at risk to get an unjust red-light ticket that enriches an Australian company, while traffic fines are doubled so they can get their part of our pie. My taxes keep going up to support schools that have lost all function under the onslaught of illegals with their "you can't make me, gringo" attitudes. Oh yeah, I know exactly what "globalization" is doing to us. The worse because I remember how things were before "free trade" and "deregulation" and "open borders" with the whole damned world helped drive us into this cesspit. It wasn't ideal, no system ever is; but we weren't trying to be everyone's nanny and benefactor, we looked out for our own interests (no one else is going to do that for us), and it was a lot more fair to U.S. citizens. And this country is still the United States, not Los Estados Mexicanos del Norte.

All in all, pretty much the same problem Montana is having with outsiders coming in and forcing changes on the state... except illegal immigration does it on a much larger and FAR more overtly destructive scale.

Oh, and here's your Godwin award.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

And take a look at the statistics for sex crimes commited by your upstanding U.S. citizens- Hmmm. Not to mention all of the other sex crimes and other acts that go unreported. Didn't a well respected police officer from missoula just get sentenced for using the city computer to download kiddie porn?

Consider that a large proportion of "sex crimes" in this country are victimless -- two teenagers were recently convicted as child pornographers for sending naked pictures to each other, how is that a "sex crime"?? Recently some 19 year old was prosecuted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend; how is that a "sex crime"?? Did you know that in some states, a DRAWING or DESCRIPTION suffices as felony "kiddie porn" even tho no actual children were harmed or involved in any way?? Did you know that both streaking and peeing in the alley behind the bar are both recorded as "sex crimes" since they're both prosecuted as "indecent exposure"??

Once you weed out all these bogus "sex crimes" (which look great on a prosecutor's stats, but do little or nothing toward a more civilized society) there really aren't all that many true "sex crimes" left, here defined as those that actually harm another person.

[anthonyr]

Originally Posted by Reziac

Consider that a large proportion of "sex crimes" in this country are victimless -- two teenagers were recently convicted as child pornographers for sending naked pictures to each other, how is that a "sex crime"?? Recently some 19 year old was prosecuted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend; how is that a "sex crime"?? Did you know that in some states, a DRAWING or DESCRIPTION suffices as felony "kiddie porn" even tho no actual children were harmed or involved in any way?? Did you know that both streaking and peeing in the alley behind the bar are both recorded as "sex crimes" since they're both prosecuted as "indecent exposure"??

Once you weed out all these bogus "sex crimes" (which look great on a prosecutor's stats, but do little or nothing toward a more civilized society) there really aren't all that many true "sex crimes" left, here defined as those that actually harm another person.

Victimless crime does not exist. A crime is a crime whether there is an identifiable person, as victim or not. It is not a pre-condition to a conviction for any crime that a victim be proven.A couple of generations ago, the term "victimless crime" had some practical significance in the practice of criminal law. Defence lawyers used it in an attempt to reduce penalty. Prostitution pornography and illegal gambling were said to be victimless and therefore less serious. The answer is, of course, that in criminal law there does not need to be a victim. If A sells B a kilo of heroin then (at that point) there is no victim. But the potential harm of the distribution and use of the drug is substantial. It is a serious crime but without an immediate victim. Accordingly, victimless crime is not a category which exists. The term itself implies a falsehood: that all crimes must have immediate victims. In case you are unaware last year over fifteen thousand people were killed in drunk driving accidents even though drinking and driving is a victimless crime, along with driving underage, and underage drinking. Tax evasion, which costs the country millions of dollars every year is a victimless crime. Driving without a licence, and driving without insurance, both victimless crimes which cost many lives, and thousands of dollars to people each year. Child pornography is a victimless crime. Indescent exposure, which subjects innocent people to lewdness is a victimless crime. A 17 y.o. underaged person having sexual relations with an adult is a victimless crime, especially when the girl gets pregnant, has a baby, and dad is nowhere to be found, costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars each year is a victimless crime. Illegal prostitution, which spreads some of the most viscous diseases such as HIV/AIDs, and HPV which has been linked to cervical cancer is yet another example of the victimless crimes which you think should be ignored. The list could go on forever, and victimless crimes aren't always so "victimless", whereas violent crime covers only five things, murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault. These crimes are often less problematic than victimless crimes.

[anthonyr]

Originally Posted by Reziac

I grew up in Montana, but for the past 25 years I've lived in SoCalifornia. I see the issues with illegal immigration all around me every day. I used to be all for helping the poor downtrodden immigrant fleeing the evils of the old country.. until I'd lived here for a while, and realised that illegals were bringing those evils here with them (rather than leaving them behind), and that given public policy as it stood, we citizens had no choice but to bend over and take it. My own state senator and representative (both excellent defenders of citizens' rights) understand this and have done what they can, but when the majority of a state's legislature can't see beyond the next election and are terrified of offending the hispanic voting bloc, it's a lost cause.

As to cultural differences -- well, if these people came here and paid taxes and kept their money in American circulation, maybe I wouldn't be so resentful of the rather large subset of illegals that live like pigs (drive through a barrio someday and tell me it's not so -- and poverty is no excuse for dumping garbage in the streets). As it is, I pay taxes to support their welfare babies and their prison population (it costs more to house one prisoner for a year than I make in that same year) and the escalating costs of an infrastructure that can't keep up with the added strain, and meanwhile my way of life is being taken away right before my very eyes. I'm supposed to bend over and take it because it's "unjust" that I don't like someone inflicting their culture's worst points on my country's way of life??

I've watched "globalization" destroy what remains of American industry, and put us in hock to foreign interests. My power bill is now TEN TIMES what it was 10 years ago (despite using 1/3rd less) because "globalized" energy interests now own the generating plants. I can't buy decent tools at any price, because with "free trade" it's more profitable for business to shut down American factories, put Americans out of work, and instead import Chinese junk. Every time I drive down the main drag I'm at risk to get an unjust red-light ticket that enriches an Australian company, while traffic fines are doubled so they can get their part of our pie. My taxes keep going up to support schools that have lost all function under the onslaught of illegals with their "you can't make me, gringo" attitudes. Oh yeah, I know exactly what "globalization" is doing to us. The worse because I remember how things were before "free trade" and "deregulation" and "open borders" with the whole damned world helped drive us into this cesspit. It wasn't ideal, no system ever is; but we weren't trying to be everyone's nanny and benefactor, we looked out for our own interests (no one else is going to do that for us), and it was a lot more fair to U.S. citizens. And this country is still the United States, not Los Estados Mexicanos del Norte.

All in all, pretty much the same problem Montana is having with outsiders coming in and forcing changes on the state... except illegal immigration does it on a much larger and FAR more overtly destructive scale.

Oh, and here's your Godwin award.

Thank you for the award. I use the Nazi analogy because most people wouldn't know who people like General Gosh, Papa Doc Duvalier,Pol Pot, or Ismail Enver are.
Also, Look up the Kennedy-McCain bill from a few years back- were you one of the many who ridiculed this bill? This would have given illegal aliens the right to work here, while paying taxes on what they earned here.