new people... (Kalispell: subdivisions, taxes, price)

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

Victimless crime does not exist. A crime is a crime whether there is an identifiable person, as victim or not. It is not a pre-condition to a conviction for any crime that a victim be proven.

[snip]

Under your contention, no one should have to assume any risk for their own behaviour. How is someone who sells a kilo of heroin forcing the end users to stick it into their veins? They are responsible for their decision to use it, not the dealer. If you engage in risky behaviour, and it hurts you, that's your problem. And "it hurts society" doesn't wash if people are required to take responsibility for their own behaviour, rather than having it micromanaged by the state.

By your logic, Coors should be charged with a crime because some people drink to excess, just in case they MIGHT drive drunk and hurt someone else (which then becomes a Real Crime).

An interesting article on the topic: The Free Liberal: A Victimless Crime?

An in-depth report on the problems caused by illegal immigration: The Dark Side Of Illegal Immigration: Facts, Figures and Data Show A Disturbing Truth

An online book about the issue of consensual crime: Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do or go directly to its table of contents.

From McWilliams' book:

Roughly half of the arrests and court cases in the United States each year involve consensual crimes—actions that are against the law, but directly harm no one's person or property except, possibly, the "criminal's."

Which helps explain why the U.S. has the highest per-capita prison population, and the largest number of people behind bars, of ANY country in the world.

[anthonyr]

ALL crime hurts our society- Are you telling me that drug use doesn't hurt society? That it is victimless? Your idea of crime is frighteningly naive. Your in depth reports can easily be googled and I will find the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, it would support my opinion. Anyway, I'm bored with this argument- good luck

[jimj]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

Thank you for the award. I use the Nazi analogy because most people wouldn't know who people like General Gosh, Papa Doc Duvalier,Pol Pot, or Ismail Enver are.
Also, Look up the Kennedy-McCain bill from a few years back- were you one of the many who ridiculed this bill? This would have given illegal aliens the right to work here, while paying taxes on what they earned here.

My,my aren't you so smart? I guess us ignorant Montana people needs to be edumacated in histerey and how the world according to Garp werks.

Yeppers, we dun no nuthin here, never been outside Kalispell.....:rolleyes

After having lived through 2 carreers where illegals took over and lowered the wages so much that it was impossible to compete, after watching these criminals (yes criminals since they've no right to be here) put many people I know out of work I have ZERO tolerence for them.
I was against the McCain bill for a couple of reasons the first one being mass amnesty. Boot 'em out, close up the border then we'll process worker visas.
You're right, we're mean people for being ticked that jobs that should be paying $15 and hour are being taken by people who will do it for $8 because THEY don't have the expenses we do like insurance or taxes. Your right, we're wrong for not liking the fact that the U.S. is one of the biggest incomes for Mexico with all the illegals sending money home.
You're right, we're selfish for not liking that we have to know other languages just to order at a drive through window IN THE U.S.
Ahhhh the liberal agenda. Gotta love it!

[anthonyr]

Originally Posted by jimj

My,my aren't you so smart? I guess us ignorant Montana people needs to be edumacated in histerey and how the world according to Garp werks.

Yeppers, we dun no nuthin here, never been outside Kalispell.....:rolleyes

After having lived through 2 carreers where illegals took over and lowered the wages so much that it was impossible to compete, after watching these criminals (yes criminals since they've no right to be here) put many people I know out of work I have ZERO tolerence for them.
I was against the McCain bill for a couple of reasons the first one being mass amnesty. Boot 'em out, close up the border then we'll process worker visas.
You're right, we're mean people for being ticked that jobs that should be paying $15 and hour are being taken by people who will do it for $8 because THEY don't have the expenses we do like insurance or taxes. Your right, we're wrong for not liking the fact that the U.S. is one of the biggest incomes for Mexico with all the illegals sending money home.
You're right, we're selfish for not liking that we have to know other languages just to order at a drive through window IN THE U.S.
Ahhhh the liberal agenda. Gotta love it!

By no means am I a liberal- I'm about as much of a devout republican as you can get, with a lot of libertarian views. However, I am all about common sense, and what will work and what is a waste of time. Glad to see you can google the Kennedy-McCain bill to read about it. You are right about the expenses incurring due to illegal immigration. I brought the bill up because one poster said he wouldn't be so upset about illegals if they contributed to taxes, etc.. So, if you have all the answers, what are you going to do about it? Sit on your butt and complain until your blue in the face? I love the keyboard warriors who have all the answers, but don't have the balls to do anything about it! Hopefully you'll vote for me when I run for office.- Yeah- I'm gonna try to do something about it!

[anthonyr]

My,my aren't you so smart? I guess us ignorant Montana people needs to be edumacated in histerey and how the world according to Garp werks.

Yeppers, we dun no nuthin here, never been outside Kalispell.....:rolleyes

Wow - By the way- I am a product of the Montana Educational System, a graduate of the U of Montana, and I live and work in the Flathead. If you've never been outside of Calispell, than thats your own fault for being ignorant. Montana has some of the best teachers in the nation- you must have skipped class to many times...rolleyes :@

[mtspadebit]

people in Montana,outside of Missoula, are quite noted for quoting:" do not californize our town, like Missoula has. People have a tendency to build, destroy, and leave especially those from calif. It has been proven over and over again. They come here to get away from the problems they created , then try to get us to change our ways, which they liked to begin with, to the same ones they left. Our forests are becoming destroyed by people that want to build in the country then complain about the deer that eat their flowers, the coyotes and wolves that get their cats ,dogs,etc. The bears that scare them ,the elk that tear down their fences. We dont need to be invaded by a lot of city people that have no respect for the "last best place'. Stay home. You destroyed your states, leave ours alone. And old time Montanans do not welcome outsiders. I know. I am one

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

By no means am I a liberal- I'm about as much of a devout republican as you can get, with a lot of libertarian views. However, I am all about common sense, and what will work and what is a waste of time. Glad to see you can google the Kennedy-McCain bill to read about it. You are right about the expenses incurring due to illegal immigration. I brought the bill up because one poster said he wouldn't be so upset about illegals if they contributed to taxes, etc.. So, if you have all the answers, what are you going to do about it? Sit on your butt and complain until your blue in the face? I love the keyboard warriors who have all the answers, but don't have the balls to do anything about it! Hopefully you'll vote for me when I run for office.- Yeah- I'm gonna try to do something about it!

Doing what we can to protect our own interests is not a waste of time. Even if it's to some degree a losing battle, it's better to fight it than to bend over and take it. Which latter is what we've been doing by ENABLING the flood of illegal aliens, with entitlements and welfare and making sure we don't step on their cultural toes.

As to the Libertarian view -- I met the first Libertarian Presidential candidate (he toured Montana, way back when). I don't know who was behind him, but there wasn't an independent thought in that man's head. While I share a lot of Libertarian views, I've become rather suspicious, and I'm not alone in this, that the real backers of the Libertarian Party are big business, who see its philosophy as a way to radically reduce their expenses (since illegals will work for pennies on the dollar, and won't complain about not being given any benefits) while cornering all the markets that are presently the province of government.

Myself, I'm mostly a Reagan-type Republican, with some libertarian (small L) leanings. Boils down to while gov't does some things well for all, it gets to do those things only, and otherwise it had better stay out of my wallet and out of my life.

As to what I'd do about illegal immigration -- first and foremost, get rid of entitlement citizenship. Stop ALL welfare, hospital care, and education for illegals. Get rid of ALL the incentives to come here, and ALL the easy ways for one person to import dozens more.

Common trick is for a woman already in labor to sneak across the border and present herself at the emergency room of a gov't-funded hospital (which by law cannot turn anyone away for inability to pay, and for "humanitarian" reasons won't turn away a woman already in labor). When the brat is born, it is automatically a U.S. citizen -- and under current regulations, that means ALL of its extended family can now come here legally. INS stats showed that for each such baby and its automatic citizenship, an average of 45 people subsequently immigrate who otherwise could not do so legally.

Penalize those who hire illegals to the point that they're no longer economical; but since for some jobs (especially seasonal agriculture) the existing wages are realistic, reward (tax breaks work) those same businesses for paying the same money to American kids, many of whom are NOT "too good" to do menial jobs. Teenagers used to do all those jobs, ya know, back before illegals took over the low-end job market.

As to those who will sneak across the border anyway -- first time they're caught, confiscate everything they own and throw them back across the border, buck naked. Second time, execute them. Same goes for anyone who enables them (by hiring as "coyotes", by hiding them, or whatever). Yes, I'm serious. We've made it far too easy to just sneak back across the border, over and over and over, with no consequences whatsoever except *maybe* being deported.

If they truly need sanctuary, they can apply for it legally, and be considered under the same rules as everyone else. But "my country is poor because the leaders are corrupt and take advantage of the peasants" doesn't cut it. Our country started in that very same boat. We threw out our tyrants, despite being mostly peasants ourselves, back then. They can do the same, or live with it, whichever they want for their own country. But exporting their problems HERE shouldn't be an available option.

As we say in SF fandom, your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency.

[rickers]

Originally Posted by mtspadebit

people in Montana,outside of Missoula, are quite noted for quoting:" do not californize our town, like Missoula has. People have a tendency to build, destroy, and leave especially those from calif. It has been proven over and over again. They come here to get away from the problems they created , then try to get us to change our ways, which they liked to begin with, to the same ones they left. Our forests are becoming destroyed by people that want to build in the country then complain about the deer that eat their flowers, the coyotes and wolves that get their cats ,dogs,etc. The bears that scare them ,the elk that tear down their fences. We dont need to be invaded by a lot of city people that have no respect for the "last best place'. Stay home. You destroyed your states, leave ours alone. And old time Montanans do not welcome outsiders. I know. I am one

Free country buddy. If you can't deal with change then it is your problem.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by anthonyr

...a graduate of the U of Montana

Ah. All is explained.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by rickers

Free country buddy. If you can't deal with change then it is your problem.

And what would you do if someone moved in next door to you, then complained endlessly to the Authorities, until you were forced to move and to shut down your business? What if the policies they get enacted raise your taxes to the point that you're forced out of your own home, cuz you can no longer afford it?

THAT is the kind of change we don't like... the kind that forces people to GIVE UP their existing lifestyle, and sometimes runs them out of their homes as well. No one has the right to force you to give up YOUR life, but that's what we've been allowing to happen, by kowtowing to invaders of several sorts.

"Change" is what the immigrant is supposed to do, not the existing resident. If the new arrivals can't deal with changing to fit their new home, maybe they shouldn't have come here.

See, that argument works both ways