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Another genius, actually some states do/did go down in population while the rest of the country went up, but that's besides the point here.
So UB50, how long did it take you to figure out "they are never coming back" ? .............you must be a very wise man, I could never have figured that out on my own.
Actually population growth and expansion AREN"T inevitable, if not for the imigration, legal and ILLEGAL the USA population would pretty much be stable. If you haven't seen the problems that this continuous growth and expansion mentality has caused, go ask an American Indian for a refresher course.
And you don't have to be genuis to know when "enough is enough", unfortunately alot of people don't see it that way and will sacrifice everything around them even their way of life to make a buck, of course once they get 'theirs' they're usually to first ones to buy the get-a-way mansion on Flathead Lake.
People will **** and moan over and over again about what has happened to their cities, while they take whatever they have to offer, and then wanna move someplace like Montana and start the whole process all over again. I said it before and I'll say it again..............A local politican quite in touch with the community told me "80 percent of the people here would be perfectly happy if all this growth would just stopped"..........call it the will of the people.
"Pine for the old days"..........I think of it as more like, we'd like to live in a decent place, you know something like the "last best place"......but the "last best place"........has been turned in to "Just another place to make a buck by developers".
Say what you want but in 30 years........99 percent of the people will be wishing it was still "like it use to be".......and no "managed growth", "controled growth" doesn't work, if it did we wouldn't be having this converstation. It's like managing a tumor, which is not a solution to the problem.
If you've paid any attention in life you've probably learned that there is a certain phenomena that occurs in some human beings, where they will beleive anything they have to believe and anything they have to that sooth their conscience in order to get or do what they want........and such is the mind set of the expansionist.......they all know they've turn our cities into open sewers of debris, human and otherwise, and yet they continue on, all for the sake of a buck. Enough said "A word to the wise is sufficient".........for all the rest, all the words in the world won't knock a lick of sense into their heads.
And why am I so mad, you might ask.........well i'm not, i'm actually very calm and sincere in my writting.
I think change is inevitable, even if population growth isn't. In the little place in Texas where I live, we have actually lost population since the eighties, but the places that were fields and wooded areas when I was a child in the sixties and teen/young adult in the seventies are covered with houses. You're right; it has to do with greed, and wanting bigger and fancier houses. Where I live, it is also somewhat about white flight from city schools to suburban schools with fewer minority students living in the suburban school district.
My parents moved to this town after WWII because a good job was available for Dad. In the fifties, they moved to a part of town that was in the country because they were both from rural places and liked the peace and quiet. They bought land and built their home north of town, (which is the way that the town grew) so by the sixties, the town extended its city limits and took them in.
I was born in the middle of the baby boom (I'm 51). I miss the way Texas used to be, so I can sympathize with how you feel about your beloved Montana. As much as I miss the way the land used to look, I miss the people of my grandparents' generation (and increasingly those of my parents' generation ) even more. Their values were different than those of most modern-day people, I guess partly due to the hardships they experienced during the Great Depression.
Living for the moment is in fashion now. People don't heed the lessons of history.
I'm also one, who for better or worse, doesn't beleive in a social security system
I've got mixed feelings about it. It started out as a supplemental way to help people in old age get by financially and was not intended to be their sole means of income. Unfortunately over the decades seniors have become more dependent on it and for many it actually is their only source of income. That creates a dilema. Once you start a program like that and society becomes used to it you just can't take it away. I can just picture thousands of white haired seniors taking to the streets with clubs if you tried.
You also mentioned your thoughts about the numbers of younger workers versus retirees when you responded to my earlier post. I agree that if the number of younger workers is a little low then it would tend to drive wages higher, that's just supply and demand. When I mentioned countries like Japan their birth rate is so low that there simply won't be enough workers to fill the jobs and they will be burdened by the costs of caring for the elderly. If the numbers of young versus old is somehow kept in balance the system actually works quite well. I would never want to see a senior who is unable to care for themselves left abandoned by society, I think we're more humane than that. On the other hand, I would support some sort of mandatory savings when workers are young so they don't become destitute in their old age. Americans don't save enough and many plan poorly for their future and that should be addressed in some manner.
lesliegrace...............well said. Everything changes, it will either change for the better or for the worse. My philosopy is: if it's good enough leave it alone.
I've seen to many things changes around here, where the town changes something or someplace and in the process inevitably ruins it. For instance they'll take a nice quite piece of ground, say along a riverfront, a place where only a few people would go to walk their dog, hike, and basicaly enjoy a little bit of peace and quite, and then town decides to make it into a park so that 'everyone' can enjoy it, well I really don't have to tell you what happens, not only does it windup in the end costing you the taxpayers more, but your oncequite escape is now over run with people, dog fieces and whatever else have you. And I'm sure you have a similar story in. It's a typical story, governments LOVE to spend money, saying they need to save money and curb the budget..is one of the great political lies.
Montanaguy, yup when it comes to social programs, once they get started, as they say "you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube". We live in a socialist country, we just won't admit it. What percentage of jobs are government jobs? Just ask yourself "what percentage of the people that I know (obiously exclude your co-workers) work for or indirectly for the government"......second, I'd be willing to bet that most 3rd world and dictatorship countries have more freedom than we do. Example, can you hire anybody you want to...."NO", can you rent your own home to anybody you want to "NO", you'll get sued if you dis' the wrong person. Can you say anthing you want "NO".....call the president anything you want but don't DON"T say the "N" word. You government takes your property and give it to other people, it's called taxes, one good example the 'earned income credit"....basicaly they take an extra 1000 off of you and give it to your neighbor who didn't even pay that much in taxes, I could go on and on, but if that all isn't enough, you don't even have to right to raise you own children anymore or control you own private affairs, hit your kid and watch what happens, "social services" the new nazi brigade, on trumped up charges will run you up the flagpole so fast your head will spin, I've seen it happen in more than a few instances. My mother and father would both be criminals today and ripe for jail time......Our wonderfull government in this 'free' land has managed to finally pass enough laws to turn everyone into on form of criminal or another. I'm not saying I'd wanna live in Iran, but I ain't saying I'm swallowing all the 'freedom' bs we get feed over here. And I'd bet 98 percent of all the other countries in the world, still give you more freedom when it comes to raising your children and you don't have to be worried about being arrest because of how you discipline your OWN children. Enough though I have digressed once again............
I know that hundreds of thousands of people who move to a state for culture and lifestyle and whatever floats their boat all say "we aren't going to change anything" BUT they come and one complaint I have heard (from friends in CO, UT, Az, NM and WA and OR and WY) is they do change - frequently and drastically.
If you look at American history or for that matter the history of any nation you will notice that the only constant is change. It's just the nature of man and the civilization we've created. Looking at the relatively short history of America since the late 1700's I think the trend of these changes has been for the better without a doubt. People often talk about how wonderful it would have been to have lived in the days of the old west in a kind of romanticized way but they don't stop to think that life was very difficult and days were typically filled with back breaking manual labor and a large part of our population were just scraping by. The middle class didn't even exist until about a century ago when the labor movement, advances in technology that made work easier, and a basic shift in attitude finally allowed everyday people to live a fairly comfortable life.
I don't believe that the difficulties of living in modern America even come close to what are ancestors endured. In fact we're fortunate enough to be living in a time of prosperity along with about fifteen or twenty other nations that has never been equalled in human history.
Ok, enough of my mini history lesson. I'm just suggesting to you that we should put things into perspective and realize that we're the beneficiaries of generations of Americans who created a wealthy society. Now let me address your specific concerns. I just retired so I'm now on a fixed income myself which is something you talked about. Housing in the Phoenix area where I live has skyrocketed so I've spent the last year or so really looking at all of my options and I've decided to move to Tennessee where the cost of living is much less and housing is affordable. My house is for sale and I'll be moving as soon as I can. That was my solution and I'm looking forward to yet another change of scenery and new possibilities. I suspect you also have many options that you might not have even considered. As I said before, change is inevitable and you just have to sort out the best choices for your future.
I am being pushed out of my home state (and was considering a move to Montana but it seems to have suffered a bunch from new folks itself) and all the people who promised not to change things - have. not only can't I afford to buy a new home here, once I go on fixed income I can no longer afford the taxes. They used to be a few hundred a year and are now a few hundred a month - all thanks to the new people with money.
Needless to say I (in western montana) understand your problem. There are lots of places in this country that are very affordable, the problem is that everyone wants to crowd into the same places, like Montana.
My point that I try to get across on this forum, although it gets misconstrewed alot is that, there are other places, places that are nice and much more affordable. In essence, why come here and contribute to our problem and come to a place that is rapidly turning into what you are trying to leave, why do that when you can just find another area of the country that has everything montana has to offer and more and CHEAPER.
Way to many people have climbed onto the "last best place" "montana dream" fantasy. Moving to montana has turned into another one of those social mindless trends, much to our dismay and dismantling.
Shammy I'm sure if you do your home work you'll find lots of out of the way cheap and scenic parts of this country (including remote untrendy areas of MT) . Places unlike western Montana/Bozeman unclutered with trendy people and all the problems and havoc they impose on the locals. Sorry to have to say that, but that is the way it is.
We here in Montana, truely do love our home.
If you are moving to Montana for the "simple" life...... then your bucket will overflow with it for sure...... just remember to live "simple"..... and you'll be alright.
Don't change our rules. If you left because your world was going to pieces its because of the fluffy fluffy warm snuggly government doing for you what you thought you couldn't do for yourself....given time people learn not to do for themselves....look at New Orleans.
The problem native residents of Montana have with "newcomers" is newcomers want to change rules to make it more "comfortable" and compatible to the life style they left. Everyone wants their 5, 10, 15, 20 acre tract of Montana. Do you have any idea what these "developments with their fancy California style CC&R's" do to Montana farmers/ranchers. We eventually have to sell because our taxes increase to a point we can't afford to continue farming.
We pay over $2000 in just fire insurance protection because we don't have a "fire service" most people take for granted. Ours is volunteer with old equipment. (NOTE the word "volunteer"...That means you and me baby). Now if we got enough "newcomers" to the area....by gosh, they'd fix this problem. Then we would be paying out the nose more than the $2000 we now pay for insurance....because our property taxes would go way up to "protect us." You know the government doesn't stop with minimum "protection."
Most "newcomers" are used to sales tax. Yeap, lets just vote that one in. That will cure our problems. Just think of the money we would get from "vacationers." What the transplants don't realize is we get quite a bit of commerce from Wyoming, ND, SD, ID because we DON'T have a sales tax. Why the heck would they bother driving across the border, spending their money in Montana, if we had a sales tax. They spend more money here than the vacationers....That vacationer farce is a government want for more money.
But the "newcomers" FEEL a sales tax would be fine....they're used to it anyway. So why NOT? Then the blessed "politicians" in Helena could put more into the "general fund." NO....we don't want sales tax, we don't want small acreage developments with septic tanks on these small parcels that create unsafe ground waters because of nitrates. (Yes, I know farmers use nitrates for fertilizer, but nothing compared to waste contamination cause by too many septics saturating the ground)
Meagher county had it right. No more developing. It may be one of the poorest counties in the state, but they have their priorities right. It isn't that we don't want anyone here. Its the values, needs, and wants newcomers are "accustomed" to from whence they came. A simple life correct. But the newcomers idea of simple life is a lot different than what a simple life is. Gee, what does one do with only dialup internet access. HaH!!! The "hunters" think we are lucky to have this farm. I agree, we are. I don't see these same people during the year when we're fencing, spraying weeds, branding, fighting grassland wildfires, swathing/baling/stacking hay, picking rocks, fighting gophers nor do they appreciate the cost of this operation.
As the SpanishFly woman, or whatever her name is says "why don't you just move." Well, you pretty much know my answer to that one. Use your imagination. Gee, if I only knew her address. I have some cute pine bark beetles I could send. These buggers are here because the newcomers didn't want spraying of the noxious bugs....same thing the ranchers in Western Montana ran in to with spraying of the knapweed. Newcomers thought it better to pull the knapweed Don't change MONTANA and you are welcome to its beauty.
Thank you.
Way to many people have climbed onto the "last best place" "montana dream" fantasy. Moving to montana has turned into another one of those social mindless trends, much to our dismay and dismantling.
QUOTE]
Gee, I think we have Hollywood (is that in California ? ) to blame for that one. The movie "A River Runs Through It" comes to mind. That really did start the BIG rush to Montana. There were a few people coming before that, but not like it is now. It is awful...that is unless I wanted a "developer" to come in and develop our farm into "ranchettes." I would be a pimp if I did that.
"The problem native residents of Montana have with "newcomers" is newcomers want to change rules to make it more "comfortable" and compatible to the life style they left. Everyone wants their 5, 10, 15, 20 acre tract of Montana. Do you have any idea what these "developments with their fancy California style CC&R's" do to Montana farmers/ranchers. We eventually have to sell because our taxes increase to a point we can't afford to continue farming."
Do the farmers and ranchers in Montana get a tax break for "agricultural use" land?
[quote=ladyflyfsh;356930][quote=JoeJoeMan;356103]It's real simple......................if you live in montana, just take a look around....your way of life is, if not already has disappeared. Does that make you happy ? I DON'T THINK SO.....
QUOTE]
JJM, perhaps you should just start a thread on Missoula since that is where so much of your frustration lies. So many of your posts refer to Montana instead of just Missoula where you are in hate with your surroundings.
I reside in the Jefferson Valley south of Whitehall and it is very much the good old Montana of old. QUOTE]
And HOW LONG have you lived near Whitehall?
Do you even know Whitehall before the pinebark beetle took over the pass? Were you in Whitehall before Radar Creek was full of ranchettes? And "Friendship Springs" roads AAck! Were you in Whitehall before the "valley" you live in had all of the people it now has. Where it is almost impossible to fish the Jefferson because the rancher's land has been subdivided so that no one can fish the Jefferson because its banks are now the "property of the community" who live on their little ranchette which is part of a development?
You should have seen Whitehall 25 years ago. For that matter you should have seen the valley all the way down to the Ruby resevoir....
JJM doesn't need to start a thread about Missoula "perhaps". Ghad, if that doesn't sound like a liberal.
It is Montana and unless development is stopped all of Montana will be like Missoula. Missoula's valley is a narrow valley. If the Jefferson Valley were as narrow it would look like Missoula in just another 10 short years. Then Fly lady where will you "just move" to?
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) even more. Their values were different than those of most modern-day people, I guess partly due to the hardships they experienced during the Great Depression.
NO....we don't want sales tax, we don't want small acreage developments with septic tanks on these small parcels that create unsafe ground waters because of nitrates. (Yes, I know farmers use nitrates for fertilizer, but nothing compared to waste contamination cause by too many septics saturating the ground)
Don't change MONTANA and you are welcome to its beauty.
) to blame for that one. The movie "A River Runs Through It" comes to mind. That really did start the BIG rush to Montana. There were a few people coming before that, but not like it is now. It is awful...that is unless I wanted a "developer" to come in and develop our farm into "ranchettes." I would be a pimp if I did that.
