why are some people so mad? (Missoula, Chinook: sale, rentals, new house)

[ladyflyfsh]

[quote=JoeJoeMan;356103]It's real simple......................if you live in montana, just take a look around....your way of life is, if not already has disappeared. Does that make you happy ? I DON'T THINK SO.....
QUOTE]

JJM, perhaps you should just start a thread on Missoula since that is where so much of your frustration lies. So many of your posts refer to Montana instead of just Missoula where you are in hate with your surroundings.

I reside in the Jefferson Valley south of Whitehall and it is very much the good old Montana of old. People all still wave to each other in passing on the roads. There are no traffic jams, traffic lights, no crime, no pollution, a good sense of community and inexpensive housing. Great fishing just down the road less than half a mile and just all around nice people. I have none of the complaints you have since this area is still virtually untouched. We have great access to the interstate, can go to Butte or Bozeman for necessities and can live a nice quiet and peaceful life here free of all the horrible things you continually complain about. SO, my question to you is this...if you hate it so much over there, why don't you leave? Obviously there are still tons of places like where I am that still exist here in Montana so you don't HAVE to live where you are so miserable.

I'm about to give up posting here as I'm exhausted listening to your constant bickering and complaining about things you could simply just move away from! I can tell you right now, it won't get any better and you will never get your old Missoula back, so you may as well throw in the towel and find a new place like the old Missoula and be happy again. Expand your horizons and your mind and maybe you can lose some of that ugly negativity.

I live in an awesome area and love it here....it could happen to you..ya never know!!!

[JoeJoeMan]

Ladyflyfish....
Let me address some of your comments...."why don't I just move"... because this where I live, it's home, it's where my children were born, it's where their relatives live, it's where my friends are, job, etc are. I'm not just some foo-foo yuppie, who lives some free life style, and into moving somewhere to indulge my life style. You might say I have roots here, but if you are a transplant you might not be able to relate to that. Family and friends are more important than beauty and surroundings, I know I'm old fashion and dated.
Second I don't see where speaking up to express an opinion that more and more montanans are embracing these days is being angry. And I suspect you have enough sense to realize that, and also suspect that you use the reasoning to just win a point. It's a common technic.
I've also been to your part of the state, I use to live out that way, last I heard you are not immune to rapidy esculating realestate prices, a direct effect of it's close proximity of Bozeman no doubt, and a disire for the well-to-do to find their Montana Dream (our nitemare). And I'd suspect you'd be the first person to blow their top when they start putting in a Trout-View Estates across the road from you and crowding up your fishing hole. Your area is changing, if you been there any lenght of time you must realize that. The last time I went down to the Madison valley to fish, it was non-stop montana dream houses from Ennis to West Yellowstone. to find some peace I thought I'd hike back in to a small stream I use to fish their as a younger and more agile man....silly me, I didn't find much peace there either.
My comments about Missoula and it's people are as much in humor as they are in truth, people that live there make fun of it all the time too, just a thought to put my previous comments in better context.
Montana is not what it use to be only a few short years ago, any person living here more than a few years doesn't need anyone to tell them that. California and the northwest coast use to be open and free just like montana, and here's the important point, that was only a few generations ago, and as little as one in some cases.
Yes we do need change, we need to change what is currently happen here, that is the kind of change we need, we need a change of mindset before we lose everything we've got, or what little we have left. We've had some 15 years now of this growth mentality, and now it's time for a change. They had 15 years to make their money and expliot montana. Now it's time to change and preserve what is left. I think montanans thinking on my side of the fence have seen enough lose of their life style, their way of life, not to mention the financial hardship it will bring on our children who will need to find and buy a place of their own someday.
The government isn't going to do anything and neither are the realestate, developers or growth type people, they only thing they will do is passify use with silly notions of "controlled growth" and "affordable housing".
So I feel it's time for us everyday people just to be start letting it be known that we don't appreciate them, their type or their ways, and yes we don't want them here, we like our state the way it is or was. They had their turn now it's ours.
Ladyflyfish, you know if you live where you do, why you do, for it's peace, beauty and serenity, no doubt, well the Bitterroot and Flathead valleys use to be that way, less than a generation, a short generation ago, to be specific 20 years ago. I'm sure you wouldn't want your area to wittness those changes, now would you ?. But you are embracing the very ideas that will bring those changes about. I suggest that you try, for your own good, if not others, looking past the mountains that surround your valley, look over into the adjacent valleys, becasue they'll be coming for you and your life stlye next.

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Yes, Missoula doesn't really capture the Montana that we all know and love.
As a matter of fact, rarely can Missoula and surrounding areas be compared to "Montana" anymore, as these have drifted so far off of the radar with regard to Montana that it's not funny.

I bailed on Missoula in 91, and never looked back....
I mentioned somewhere in these threads that Missoula (Bitterroot) has turned into the same kind of place that most who post here are desperately trying to leave.....

Missoula is the last place you need to be if you want to make it well in Montana......
There are any number of over 1,000 different places in this state that you can go that will foot the bill on your dreams and Missoula certainly isn't one of those places.....

[Boof]

Originally Posted by halliwellalien

i find it sad that some of you feel like that. i do understand the love you feel for your home state. as i stated before, i love my state. but, as with everywhere, things change.

JoeJoeMan, i too remember when i could ride my bike places. now, there are shootings in our playgrounds, and drugs are crazy here.

i am sorry for the people that move there and try to change it. that is not what we want. i have read some posts, and have felt good about moving to montana. and then there are those that make me wonder. but, even with all of that, we will be moving to montana.

halliwellalien,

You are 100% correct. Things will change. People will move to new areas. And whether the locals like it or not, it WILL happen.

We all have to find our place in this world, and it isn't always where we started out at. And that's not a bad thing. Like you, I wouldn't move back to where I was born. It's loaded with crime, drugs, shootings, etc... So I can fully understand where you are coming from. And although we might not want to leave, in order to survive, we sometimes have to leave. It all depends on what type of person we are, and what we are willing to tolerate. So while some might stay and struggle to survive; there are people like me, and you, that don't want to have to live in a war zone and be subjected to the bad elements. Especially if there are children involved. Life is tough enough.

So with that said, it appears that although you can't stop progress, maybe it can be moderated and controlled to a point as to not become a burden to the area. We've experienced a tremendous amount of growth in my area. More than the roads and utilities and services can accomodate. And I think that's the biggest factor of concern for longtime residents. Maybe not that it's growing, but the rate of the growth and inability to keep up without creating problems that are not so easily resolved. But that's not to say that ALL change is bad. Sometimes it can be a very positive thing! It's all in how one goes about it.

These are all valid concerns for people. BUT, it's up to everyone to get involved with their State, County & Local government officials to help guide the direction of 'progress'. So while my posts encouraging the 'good fight' might seem harsh, it's certainly not what I'd intended. All I was trying to say is, as a citizen, it's your duty & responsibility to be vocal with your State representatives and if they are heading in an undesireable direction, then they must be told. With letters and votes.....that's the fight I'm speaking of. If that fails, then at least you'd tried.

So I wish you much success, prosperity & happiness in you move to MT. You seem to be the type of person they will welcome with open arms. You at least deserve the opportunity to try!

Best Always,
Boof

[JoeJoeMan]

I still don't get why you have to move all the way up here to get away, from crime, durgs, etc.... you could probably move 100 miles from where you are and get away from it, or ok 200 miles, why do you have to come all the way up here ? That's that part I don't get.
And that whole issue about "controled growth"....is nothing but a passifier spewed out by developers to get what they want. We've been hearing about that years. And they just keep building where and whatever they want.......wake up.."Controlled Growth" is a con !
And what is wrong with the Dakotas, I'll bet they have a fraction of the crime and drug problems montana has and you could buy a house there for a song, probably on a lake all to yourself.
Pray tell me ?
You know why...because montana is foo-foo and trendy and because it looks like where they are coming from only smaller (not for long). Because they want to move to somewhere that resembles in someways what they left behind, shopping, espresso shops, trendy looking people, vibrant communities, jobs, growth, .....They wouldn't move to Dakota if they were giving away houses there. I doubt that they want very much at all the simple life style they say, 'cause they certainly ain't going to find that in western montana or the Bozeman area. You want that simple easy cheap, small town, neighborly life go to a place like South Dakota or Iowa or even eastern montana, that's where you find real american these days, just to name a couple examples.

[MontanaGuy]

I really have a different point of view about Montana growth than some of you. According to the census bureau Montana on July, 2006 was at 944,632 population. On April 1, 2000 the population was 902195. That increase is very small, much less than the national average. In that same period of time where I live now in Arizona we gained more population than the entire state of Montana. Montana is one of the low growth states in the western US, that's just a fact. Also, when you consider that Montana is almost as big as California and has under a million in population it's one of the least densely populated states as well. Some of you have mentioned how the quality of life seems to be changing and I notice changes when I go back to see relatives but that sort of modernization is happening everywhere. It's not the result of thousands of newcomers because there just aren't that many of them. People just don't have the same life styles as they used to. I'm 57 so like JoeJoeMan I remember the good old days. I have fond memories of going from Butte where I grew up out to the Ruby Valley where from parents were from and visiting relatives on their ranches and fishing at a stream that went through my uncle's property. Sadly, those days really are gone but I wouldn't blame any of that on the few thousand newcomers that have moved to Montana.

[joxercat]

Wow!!
You all really can pour your hearts out! If anyone ever wanted to write a book about the people of Montana and how they view their home, this would be a great place to start. I dont think I can recall a time lately when I have heard many people speek so elequantly about there home town and state.
I can understand the fear that goes along with giving up a piece of your lives to total strangers and I commend you all for your efforts to protect and preserve what some only want to destroy. It makes me see that we are making the right decision and that even though we may have to live simple at least we will not be in the boat alone.

[JoeJoeMan]

Montanaguy... there are some misleading things about those population statistics, for one it seems like every other person I meet now-a-days is from somewhere else, 'm sure your experience is the similar.
Also if such a small population increase has caused such a visiable change in our state, that should really give cause for concern not assurance, if you get my point.
I think I addressed why those statistics are missleading in another thread so I won't repeat myself here.
My inclination in life is to beleive what I see, not what some one is telling me. Numbers are just numbers, reality is reality.

[MontanaGuy]

JoeJoeMan,
I see what you're saying and I think there's a couple of factors to consider. First of all there's alot of people like myself who have moved out of Montana so you have those numbers versus the people who are moving in so it tends to even out. People in the US do alot of moving around, I've lived in Seattle, Denver, Phoenix and I'm getting ready to move to Nashville so I've done quite a bit myself. The other factor is that certain areas tend to be getting the growth while many areas in Montana are actually losing population. The growth is happening in the western part of the state. It sounds like you're from Missoula. I used to live there myself for a few years and I have friends there. I've always liked Missoula and I know it's gotten bigger so that's probably what you're really talking about. The same is true around the Flathead Lake area and Bozeman as well. But to put it in perspective consider the huge growth that Idaho has had in recent years. Boise is now over 400,000 in the metro area which is about four times as big as Missoula. If Montana ever gets "discovered" in the same way then you'll really see changes. For your sake and others who like it now I hope that doesn't happen.

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by MontanaGuy

JoeJoeMan,
I see what you're saying and I think there's a couple of factors to consider. First of all there's alot of people like myself who have moved out of Montana so you have those numbers versus the people who are moving in so it tends to even out. People in the US do alot of moving around, I've lived in Seattle, Denver, Phoenix and I'm getting ready to move to Nashville so I've done quite a bit myself. The other factor is that certain areas tend to be getting the growth while many areas in Montana are actually losing population. The growth is happening in the western part of the state. It sounds like you're from Missoula. I used to live there myself for a few years and I have friends there. I've always liked Missoula and I know it's gotten bigger so that's probably what you're really talking about. The same is true around the Flathead Lake area and Bozeman as well. But to put it in perspective consider the huge growth that Idaho has had in recent years. Boise is now over 400,000 in the metro area which is about four times as big as Missoula. If Montana ever gets "discovered" in the same way then you'll really see changes. For your sake and others who like it now I hope that doesn't happen.

Statistics, considering what they are, usually have the ole "margin of error" of 4% or 5% one way or the other....
Considering this, and then looking at how small valleys are in the west side, and then throwing "organic" growth (folks having kids) in on top of it all, I can see where they may not be too far off base with the numbers.

One thing you all have to remember, is that the areas being discussed here are fairly small. When we speak of "valleys", many may imagine wide open expanses of land, like the Yakima valley, or the Spokane valley or other valleys in California that are even much larger than these.....

The valleys in western Montana are much smaller than the *average valley type of picture someone might be thinking of when the discussion is going on.

Those of you who have seen the Missoula valley, or who live there now, can vouch, first hand, as to how small it really is.

Now, imagine for a moment, the Yakima valley, or lets say, the Willamette valley..... Just think for a moment, of how disturbing it would be to see both of these, completely filled with "houses" (subdivides) from one end to the other... considering just how big the Yakima valley really is, growth such as this type would be fairly alarming to those who would live there.

The Missoula valley, 30 years ago, looked and felt pretty large, because there were some expanses of open areas that existed there. Now days, however, when I get up to areas above Grant Creek, and view the valley from there, it is "completely full".... no open areas exist there anymore.... it's plum full...... From Hellgate Canyon, to the southern edges of Blue Mountain and points east out to Big Flat and beyond toward Frenchtown.... nothing but houses, houses, houses......

Everything is relative in this instance..... These valleys really can only support so many houses, and the valleys "filling" in western Montana, to us and our population, can be, and is, just as distrurbing, as lets say, the Yakima valley would be to it's residents, if it were to fill in the same fashion.
So the numbers don't really work.... inasmuch as looking at the relative size of the valley itself. Numbers can never carry the kind of weight that actually seeing what's happening to our valleys does...... Numbers won't console us at all.
Adding 40,000 people to the valleys of western Montana would be, is, and can be, just as devastating as adding 300,000 people, to the Yakima valley.

They have packed the Missoula valley so full and so tight over the past 20 years, than one can't even turn around...... You can't even sneeze without your neighbor 3 doors down knowing about it.... and this is no exageration... it's a fact.

I took it upon myself recently to visit some of our area real estate agents websites, and what I've discovered is that the header banners on those websites are pictures taken years ago, when there were no houses on the hills....Sites representing the Bitterroot valley are the same way. If I were to blow the dust off of my digital camera, and go up to the locations that these real estate agents used to take their original pictures, and snap a few of what the hills look like now... you would never want to move here.

Most others show Mt. Sentinal when they present you with Missoula, because they dare not show you any of the other surrounding hills...

They only show you Missoula proper... the old town.... and conveniently forget to show you what surrounds Missoula.